As a citizen of Newfoundland and Labrador, it’s difficult for me to understand the mentality of premier Danny Williams these days. Unlike people in other parts of Canada I don’t disagree with his direction on big oil or his fight with Ottawa over equalization, in fact I applaud him for it. What has me confused is how Williams can fight these battles under the umbrella of ensuring that his people gain the maximum benefit of their resources yet he sees nothing wrong with exporting power from the Lower Churchill development.
A major problem facing this province is the lack of a clean and steady supply of power. We see it in Labrador where many people use diesel generated power to light their homes. We also see it on the island of Newfoundland where much of the power produced comes from the burning of oil and where industries like Abiti Consolidated have closed their doors because of a lack of reasonably priced energy. With this reality, I have to wonder how the Premier can even consider spending billions on the last undeveloped mega-project in North America only to export that power elsewhere.
The economy of Newfoundland and Labrador is largely dependent on seasonal industry. The fisheries, tourism, logging, construction and so on may bring in revenue for a few months of the year but high unemployment rates in the province and the mass exodus of workers speaks volumes about the lack of dependable long term employment here. The only hope this province has is to attract industry and lessen its dependence on seasonal work. Smelters, mills, factories and the like are capable of providing employment that is sorely needed to stabilize and grow the economy. These industries all have one thing in common. They move where they can find a steady supply of power.
As I write this, firms like Alcoa, the world’s leading producer of aluminum, are scouring the earth looking for places to setup shop. The reason is a world wide shortage of electricity. These industrial giants are looking for a place that can provide them with the power they need to run their smelters.
When government discusses the energy capabilities of the Lower Churchill they often explain its potential by telling the public that it can supply about 1.5 million homes. This makes it sound like exporting the power is the only sensible thing to do since the province of Newfoundland and Labrador only has 500,000 people. What you don’t here them say is that this energy, if retained, has the potential to attract and supply dozens of major industries and provide thousands of high paying, long term and stable jobs for the province.
Yes, exporting Lower Churchill power will put millions into provincial coffers but if the current cycle of out-migration continues and if unemployment rates remain at a nation wide high, what good will it do? On the other hand, using the power to attract industry to the province would increase the industrial and personal tax base dramatically which would increase provincial revenues as well. I ask you, if you had a car but no job, would you sell it for a quick buck or would you put a taxi sign on the roof and make a steady income from it? It looks like Danny has decided to put the for sale sign in the window without even considering the options.
Patriot you said "Yes, exporting Lower Churchill power will put millions into provincial coffers but if the current cycle of out-migration continues and if unemployment rates remain at a nation wide high, what good will it do? On the other hand, using the power to attract industry to the province would increase the industrial and personal tax base dramatically which would increase provincial revenues as well. I ask you, if you had a car but no job, would you sell it for a quick buck or would you put a taxi sign on the roof and make a steady income from it? It looks like Danny has decided to put the for sale sign in the window without even considering the options".
ReplyDeletePatriot you summed it up in a paragraph. I wonder will Premier Williams be apprised of this blog, and this posting, and, hopefully if he is, he will post here and give us our answers.
I, too, want to know why Premier Williams as it appears only wants to do what previous administrations have done, that is give away our precious resources. This one, HYDROELECTRICITY, is no different, than the Fishery is, it is one of the finest resources any jurisdiction can hold and it is RENEWABLE. Not only is it renewable it is also almost non-pollutant.
When is a Premier of the Province of Newfoundland/Labrador going to come to his/her senses and say we have the product on the shelf, in this case hydroelectricity, the customers are out there shivering with the cold and convulsing with the heat, and are longing for this type of power. This type of power is used to keep people warm and cool, it is used to keep industries fed, this is the fuel that industries need to be able to operate, and wish that it was the only type of fuel in existence, because the others, (OIL and COAL) spew out so much carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, that they are bringing our universe to a QUICK and SUDDEN END? Why Not Premier Williams do this industry for Labrador? All Premier Williams has to do is advertise for industry, China and India will gladly locate here to process Aluminium and smelt the Iron Ore for their development. Every Indian and Chinese is now longing to have a stainless steel sink, a car, a computer and all the modern day technologies that we have been enjoying on this side of the developed world for the past 50 years or more. Matter of fact I know they all probably know about this resource already, but I guess they know because of the way Ottawa has everything structured, these countries think that Quebec and Ontario have it already in their grips. But what we the people of Newfoundalnd/Labrador have to do his wrestle it from their grips by being vocal with Ottawa and say, we want what is best for Labrador/Newfoundland, we want to get into the 21St Century on par with the rest of Canadians. We want to use our resources here in this province to get ahead ourselves. No good talking about it, we have to do it.
China has a proposal on the table to put $5 billion into a pipeline in Western Canada to get some of the Western Oil to their land for their development. China would do the same type of deals here if we wanted it, at least let us create competition. Let us not be STUPID as we have been for 57 years. Right now though, it is time that Labrador/Newfoundland got industries from its resources and we made the resources work for us. Labrador needs a few thousand more souls and industries to provide jobs for those souls. The Newfoundland portion of our beautiful province needs the same. Let us do what is right Premier Williams from this moment on for this wonderful resource rich province. And Premier Williams you have the brains to do what is right, so do IT Premier Williams.
Thanks for your comment anon. By the way, the Premier is indeed aware of this article and many others I have written on NL affairs. I make sure I send a copy of them to his office each time one is written.
ReplyDeleteI also know that Ottawa is fully aware of the content on this site becuase I have seen someone entering this site from the Parliamentary server nearly daily for over a year now.
The question is, will anyone listen?
Patriot: I truly believe it would be wise if Premier Williams listened to what the people of the province of Newfoundland and Labrador are saying and have been saying for a long time.
ReplyDeleteWe have been saying through the Media for years that our resources were given away for the benefit of other provinces and countries.
It would be foolhardy for the Premier to ignore what we have been saying and to go ahead and do no differently than what other politicians have done in the past, GIVE EVERYTHING AWAY.
We talked about the Upper Churchill Project and how we were not the primary beneficiary of that wonderful renewable resource that allowed Quebec to reap the profits, instead of this province. Quebec has, not only, received the billions of dollars out of the project, and will for another 40 years, it also gets the non-polutant credits, for that project as well, plus as far as we can discern it doesn't pay taxes to Ottawa on the revenue.
Now that the Lower Churchill is ripe for the developing, NOBODY but Labrador should receive the industries that will evolve because of that project coming on stream. Labrador has been so patient in waiting for its resources to bring industries to it. If industry is to be created anywhere because of the Lower Churchill project, it should be Labrador and NOWHERE ELSE, I say ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE ELSE. With an arrangement where Newfoundland and Labrador decides to go it alone, we do not need to look to conduct the electricity across Quebec, or let Quebec hold us hostage with regards to the transmission of the electricity across its corridor, or we do not need to build the AngloSaxon route to conduct the hydroelectricity.
All we need to do is Advertise to the World that the Lower Churchill is going to be proceeding and that we will be looking for Industry to locate in Labrador to avail of that hydroelectric energy. Negotiate the Contracts with the Companies that want to conduct the business in Labrador and then the Province should proceed on its own with the financing of this Project. Of course, everything will be in place before we proceed for financing. Why do we have to give everything away and get nothing other than a few up front jobs?
A question how does any province or state or country get to develop a resource on its own? Of course, the province or the state or the country takes the risk. That is the only way it can or will happen. With hydroelectrcity energy, I would say it is the less risky industry in the World. Clean energy is in great demand.
Williams is not going to do anything constructive with your precious lower churchill, mark that down and lets revisit this topic in say, I dunno, 8 years.
ReplyDeleteMore to the point, what has Williams done since he has been grand poobah. Ask yourselves, are you any better off now than prior to Williams becoming your glorious leader? Oh, right, he got a 2 billion dollar handout from Ottawa which you all will lose through the back door when Harper fixes the fiscal imbalance in Kweebeks favour!
Well, at least you will have that spanking brand new logo to keep you warm at night, you know, the one with the three thing-a-ma-bobs (laughing so hard here that my eyes are watering).
Although I continue to read this Blog regular, it’s been a long time since I have responded to any posts as the comments sections are littered with ignoramuses. Speaking of which, what two billion dollar handout are you speaking of?
ReplyDeleteHow is it that whenever Newfoundland & Labrador receives anything from the Federal Government it is labeled a handout? What do you call it when the other 9 provinces and 3 territories receive money from the feds?
This is a topic that can go around and around, but at the end of the day, the so-called two billion dollar “handout” is only a fraction of the money that Ottawa and the rest of Canada make from Newfoundland & Labrador on an annual basis.
As Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, do we have an inherent gene called the "give away gene"? I believe we must because we have this insatiable appetite to give our resources away, and all we expect in return is a kick in the derriere and to be mocked by the rest of Canada. What is our problem?
ReplyDeleteWe must modify this 'GIVEAWAY' gene and alter its course. There must be NO MORE GIVEAWAYS. Future resource developments must be done with Newfoundland and Labrador being the primary beneficiary. The only reason a resource should be developed is if that resource stays here in this province to create industry in this province. No more developing of resoAs Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, do we have an inherent gene called the "give away gene"? I believe we must because we have this insatiable appetite to give our resources away, and all we expect in return is a kick in the derriere and to be mocked by the rest of Canada. What is our problem?
We must modify this 'GIVEAWAY' gene and alter its course. There must be NO MORE GIVEAWAYS. Future resource developments must be done with Newfoundland and Labrador being the primary beneficiary. The only reason a resource should be developed is if that resource stays here in this province to create industry in the province. No more developing of resources should go ahead to create industries in other provinces.
Now that some of us have recognized this defective gene, we have to mobilize and urces should go ahead to create industries in other provinces.
Now that some of us have recognized this defective gene, we have to mobilize and
THIS POST TO REPLACE LAST ONE WHICH APPEARS TO BE DUPLICATED.
ReplyDeleteAs Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, do we have an inherent gene called the "give away gene"? I believe we must, because we have this insatiable appetite to give our resources away, and all we expect in return is a kick in the derriere and to be mocked by the rest of Canada. What is our problem?
We must modify this 'GIVEAWAY' gene and alter its course. There must be NO MORE GIVEAWAYS. Future resource developments must be done with Newfoundland and Labrador being the primary beneficiary. The only reason a resource should be developed is if that resource stays here in this province to create industry in this province. ABSOLUTELY there should be no more developing of resources unless Newfoundland and Labrador is the primary beneficiary.
Might there hae been some corrupt politicians amongst us who were only too willing to do what had to be done with our resources to ensure that they became part of the beneficiaries? Just a question, I don't know.
ReplyDeleteI am sure an enquiry to how certain politicians acquired their wealth would shed some light on the situation. Maybe that enquiry is in order.
"How is it that whenever Newfoundland & Labrador receives anything from the Federal Government it is labeled a handout? What do you call it when the other 9 provinces and 3 territories receive money from the feds?"
ReplyDeleteWe call it a handout. The $2.0 billion was a handout. It had nothing to do with oil royalties being siphoned off by Ottawa or anythign of the sort. Anyone who told that it did either didn't know what he was talking about or was telling you fibs.
It was a handout, plain and simple.
As for the comment, mrchills, about the billions being made from us, you might want to stop relying on half-assed "analysis" and second-rate information.
This post about the Lower Churchill and the supposed last chance it represents is an example of half-assed analysis and poor information.
"On the other hand, using the power to attract industry to the province would increase the industrial and personal tax base dramatically which would increase provincial revenues as well."
This is most definitely NOT the choice involved in the Lower Chrurchill development at all. The choice is between doing it and not doing it. The choice is bewteen doing it a way that benefits this province financially or doing it in a way that bankrupts us.
Every proposal for development since 1990 has incldued a significant portion of power for this province or the ability tor ecall power for industrial uses. If Mr. Higgins is worried about exporting power he can stop reading Sue and rest easy his furrowed brow.
Exporting power and gaining the rvenue as a result is a perfectly sensible way to go at the lower Churchill since:
a. there is no demand for 3 gigawatts of power in the province and there likely won't be one in the foreseeable future; and,
b. there is no way the provincial government can bankroll a project that would double the provincial debt. It can't be done, not without guaranteed markets and definitely not without selling the power outside the province.
The money that flows into provincial coffers will pay for the things the people of this province require, no matter how many of them there are.
Only a few short months ago, Myles was likely writing - likely others at the time - that the offshore was our "last chance".
How many times does "last chance" get used to justify nonsense based on half-baked ideas before that cliche gets reitred?
The business Consultants are coming out to comment. Isn't it funny how they can swing both ways?
ReplyDeleteOr is it Lobbyists, the type we do not want, the ones who Lobby our resources out of here for the benefit of the other provinces. It is sickening how things work around this province. It is the reason why things have gone the way they have over the past 57 years. It is time now that we posted a few lobbyists in Ottawa to Lobby for our fair share of industries and the dollars that come out of Ottawa for industry.
Mr. Hollet
ReplyDeleteYou say there is no demand for 3 gigawatts of power in the province and there likely won't be in the foreseeable future.
I will say this, there will be no need unless we advertise and tell the world this power is for sale for industry to locate in Labrador. WE have 3 gigawatts of power to be used by any Industry that wants to locate here. And, of course, that power will come at a cheaper cost than if Ontario is buying it and selling it to industry. If Ontario purchases it for industry there, there will be a couple more middelmen involved. Firstly Newfoundland and Labrador will have to get paid, Quebec will have to get paid for transmission and Ontario will want to get paid.
You say "there is no way the provincial government can bankroll a project that would double the provincial debt. It can't be done without guaranteed markets and definitely not without selling the power outside the province".
Here you go again, how did Quebec do it 40 years years ago with much larger gigawatts of powers from this province? And Quebec has made billions of dollars with billions more to be made over the next 40 years of the contract.
If the inventory is on the shelf Mr. Hollett and the demand is there, it will happen. It is the Law of Economics. Financiers will finance the project. Financiers are out there at the moment flushed with cash, not knowing what to do with it. They sometimes invests in concepts for the lack of a better place to put it. And most of the CONCEPTS they invest in FAIL. I can't think of a safer place than a Hydroelectric Energy Poject in Labrador for them to invest their money into. It is the safest place they will ever park money anywhere in the whole wide world.
Premier Williams if you happen to read this, please do what you told us voters you were going to do in the first place. You said you were not going to let another resource migrate from this province, without Newfoundland and Labrador being the primary beneficiary. Please Premier Williams do not go down in history the same way as the other Premiers have.
Mr. Hollett You Who said this "How is it that whenever Newfoundland & Labrador receives anything from the Federal Government it is labelled a handout? What do you call it when the other 9 provinces and 3 territories receive money from the feds?"
ReplyDeleteI say 'My God what will our fellow NL'ian do to get ahead themselves. It is ridiculous that resources just flow out of here like the rivers to the sea, and what do we really get in return? VERY LITTLE! We in Newfoundland and Labrador are the heaviest indebted people in Canada, no money coming in from our resources, yet billions made by others on them. Please give me the formula here Mr. Hollett for such a travesty of justice to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. Labrador, like Newfoundland has so many resources going to others, yet Labrador does not have 20 miles of paved roads. With resources flowing the way they are from the province, our highways should be paved with copper, not asphalt. Our ferry services should not be sub-standard and our debt should not be $23,000 per person, 6 times that of some of the other provinces.
Mr. Hollett would you please explian to me "What really happened to the Atlantic Accord when it was drawn up in the early 1980s while the PC's were in power, then the Liberals got in and the Atlantic Accord went by the wayside. Had the Atlantic Accord been negotiated properly at that time, shouldn't we have gotten monies from our Oil industry retroactive to 1996 when the Oil production began in this province? What were the losses there Mr. Hollett? We received the $2 Billion in 2005. What did we lose between the years 1996 and the year 2005 because of the screw up in the Atlantic Accord by the Liberals or was it the PCs? For the lack of a better way to explain it, I am using screw up. I don't know, one has to be a Philadelphia Lawyer to figure things out around here given all the non-transparencies spread around by politicians and lobbyists lobbying on behalf of outside interests for our resources.
You say Mr. Hollett: "The $2.0 billion was a handout. It had nothing to do with oil royalties being siphoned off by Ottawa or anything of the sort. Anyone who told that it did either didn't know what he was talking about or was telling you fibs'.
Mr. Hollett if the Federal Government hadn't collected monies from the 8.5 per cent equity that it owns in our off-shore, I guess we would not have been owed any monies at all. Would you please explain that one for me? Ottawa does not hand out monies freely.
Mr. Hollett you also said "It was a handout, plain and simple".
I SAY "It was not a handout plain and simple. They have control of the oil in the waters we brought into Canada and they owe us monies on it. Alberta received control of its Oil in the 1930s, it is time Ottawa gave us the same. Isn't this supposed to be an country with 10 equal parts or in other words every province has equality ? How can one province be so rich and another so poor, given the poorest province is one of the richest in resources? And Newfoundland and Labrador has one resource alson that rivals Alberta's Oil and that is the fish resource on the Continental Shelf of Newfoundland, often in past being referred to as one of the most prolific fish nurseries in the world, a resource that should be reproducing for eternity if Ottawa had not allowed it to become extinct.
Mr. Hollett you also said this: "As for the comment, mrchills, about the billions being made from us, you might want to stop relying on half-assed "analysis" and second-rate information.
There have been billions made by Quebec from our Hydroelectricity Energy. There have been hundreds of millions made from our Oil so far and our fish resource is probably incalculable. I can't imagine what that resource has brought to Canada over the past 57 years. So you Mr. Hollett think before you make a statement like the one you made above to Mr. Chills. Mr. Hollett how can you tell NMr. Chills to stop referring to half-assed 'analysi' and second-rate information. What gives you the authority to say such a thing and what are you attempting to get out of question your fellow Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.
There are a few questions for you to answer here Mr. Hollett. I would appreciate if you would answer them for me and the viewers. Thank You
Are the anonymous posters here the same person or three people or two twice and one once? Perhaps if you would sign your names we could see who is saying what and put us all on the same playing field.
ReplyDeleteIf each of your or if you alone would actually read what I posted, you will see that many of your questions are already addressed. in the case of the offshore, let me take a second and establish the fact of the matter, versus the misinformation which still swirls around.
1. On the offshore: Management is shared between Ottawa and St. John's.
The provincial government sets its own royalties as if the resources were on land and has collected 100% of the royalties and other chanrges it sets since the very first oil in 1997.
The 2005 agreement isa transfer of money called an Equalization offset. It is not royalties and the premier's claim of Ottawa getting 85% of royalties is simply nonsense. The provincial government admittred as much in the January agreement. read what was signed.
"then the Liberals got in and the Atlantic Accord went by the wayside. Had the Atlantic Accord been negotiated properly at that time, shouldn't we have gotten monies from our Oil industry retroactive to 1996 when the Oil production began in this province? What were the losses there Mr. Hollett? We received the $2 Billion in 2005. What did we lose between the years 1996 and the year 2005 because of the screw up in the Atlantic Accord by the Liberals or was it the PCs?"
The 1985 Atlantic Accord functioned exactly as it was intended and continues to operate as intended. So then, anonymous, you really do need to drop your partisan blinders on that one.
The simple fact remains is the province set and received 100% of the offshore revenues as it was entitled to receive from first oil in 1997 to the present. It would appear you have been misled by someone and that is the someone you might want to direct your questions to.
in addition, the province received Equalization and an offset for drops in Equalization according to the formula set in 1985 and improved in the early 1990s by the Chretien government. You might want to check the record for 1990 and see the repsonse of the federal government when the provincial government asked it to renegotiate the offset provisions.
"Mr. Hollett if the Federal Government hadn't collected monies from the 8.5 per cent equity that it owns in our off-shore, I guess we would not have been owed any monies at all. Would you please explain that one for me? Ottawa does not hand out monies freely."
The Government of Canada invested in the Hibernia project and takes its share on that project alone, as a result just like any other operator.
if newfoundland and Labrador Hydro gains an equity position in the offshore it too will have to pay royalties like other operators.
The Government of Canada also pays royalties to the provincial government, by the way, since the Hibernia Management company pays for the oil it takes.
The federal government doesn't collect royalties on any other projects.
As for the 2005 Accord money, it represents an offset to Equalization losses and as such is not a transfer of royalties or anything of the sort.
2. On the Lower Churchill:
If the province were to try and raise the $9.0 billion for the project without guaranteed power sales, I'd venture it would be almost impossible.
For those who want to build it and then use low cost power to attract industry to the province, you will have to explain who is going to subsidize the power.
Low-cost - by definition - means we will not be recovering our costs on it but selling it at a loss in exchange for industrial development.
Our economy and current government debt load and spending would not give lenders any confidence in the investment in the absence of guaranteed sales. Hence the Premier is quite right to look outside the province to sell the power at a proofit, versus the scheme of sellingv it at a loss within the province.
Now I have no doubt all of this flies in the face of the misinformation you seem to have, but the information is accurate.
Looks like the WJM - Ed Hollet tag team is back. Used quite often on the fair deal for NL website. When backed into a corner Ed will vanish for a while and WJM will be back - then ....
ReplyDeleteMr. Hollett you said: "It would appear you have been misled by someone and that is the someone you might want to direct your questions to".
ReplyDeleteMr. Hollett: My opinion hasn't changed, Premier Williams would you please respond with your opinion on this?
Mr. Hollett: you said: " It would appear you have been misled by someone and that is the someone you might want to direct your questions to".
Mr. Hollett my opinion hasn't changed: Premier Williams would you please respond with your opinion on this?
Mr. Hollett you said:
Our economy and current government debt load and spending would not give lenders any confidence in the investment in the absence of guaranteed sales. Hence the Premier is quite right to look outside the province to sell the power at a proofit, versus the scheme of sellingv it at a loss within the province.
I say Advertise the Hydroelectric Resource, China and India have billions to invest and so do other investors, if Financiers are willing to invest billions in Concepts that mostly fail, I am sure they would love to invest in Labrador's Hydroelectricity Energy. It is a NO FAIL PROJECT that is guaranteed to make it because of what it is. IT IS ENERGY MR. HOLLETT, first I will take it to the lowest common denominator of who needs it, a person needs it, Industries need it, a family needs it, Communities need it, Cities need it, Provinces need it, Countries need and the World needs IT. It is a NO FAIL RESOURCE Mr. Hollett. Please wake uk before you lead us into another give-away. What is your argument Mr. Hollett?
I would also like to hear from Premier Williams on this issue as well. I still have a lot of faith invested in this gentleman with so much business expertise and acumen. There are a couple or more questions that should be answered by our Premier. And I still hope he is the one who shows us the way. If this gentleman fails us, well let us say to Ottawa We have already sold the Shop to you for nothing, WE have already sold it.
Premier Williams the Floor is yours. I would like your answers.
WJM Where are you? We are enlisting your opinions on Labrador. Labrador has many wonderful resources which are used and not being paid for. Labrador needs infrastructure, such as a highway that is finished from Labrador South to Labrador North and it needs to be paved. Where are you now? This gentleman, Mr. Hollett, appears to want to give away the Lower Churchill? Come on WJM offer your opinion.
Mr. Hollett are you now on the same side as Premier Williams? Would you please answer this question. Because I believe you are now proponents for the same sort of deal. That is give the Energy to Ontario and let the industries there thrive. Please answer are you? If you are everything will fall into perspective.
Mr. Hollett. I can't believe your lack of forsight on the subject of the Lower Churchill. Indeed, it will be difficult if not impossible to get financing without long term customers for the power but who says that long term customer has to be another Hydro producer in another province? Industries like Alcoa, Alcan, etc. can provide some financing if interested and also sign long term contracts that would satisfy the banking community.
ReplyDeleteAs for your comment that low cost power would mean not getting a return that's bull. The plan as it stands is to produce the power, pay to have it transmitted across lines in Quebec, sell it to Ontario Hydro who can then resell it to industry and the public. If you believe we can't supply power at a lower rate by simply producing it and selling directly to the customer (In labrador) and still turn a profit then you need a lesson in business.
Does the concept of buying wholesale being lower than buying retail have any meaning to you sir?
As Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, do we have an inherent gene called the "give away gene"? I believe we must because we have this insatiable appetite to give our resources away, and all we expect in return is a kick in the derriere and to be mocked by the rest of Canada. What is our problem?
ReplyDeleteI think the "give away gene" is actually the one which causes the mindset that ANY deal, EVER, to develop something, constitutes a "giveaway".
That's the real "give away gene" at work.
and Ontario will want to get paid.
ReplyDeleteFor what?
Here you go again, how did Quebec do it 40 years years ago with much larger gigawatts of powers from this province?
By taking a very large risk, which Hydro-Quebec, a much larger utility with a much larger base of assets and revenues, was able to take.
Contrast this with the Danny Williams approach, in which he wants to "go it alone" with Quebec and the federal government assuming all the risks, and the province taking all the ownership and profits.
This is why, among other reasons, the Lower Churchill is not going to happen.
Financiers are out there at the moment flushed with cash, not knowing what to do with it.
One thing the "financiers" are not that interested in doing these days is investing in anything in Danny William's Newfoundland and Colony.
read what was signed.
ReplyDeleteDon't use the passive voice.
I'd re-phrase this as "Read what Danny Williams signed." To wit:
2. This document reflects an understanding between the Government of Canada and the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador that:
Newfoundland and Labrador already receives and will continue to receive 100 per cent of offshore resource revenues as if these resources were on land;
That is a statement of fact which Danny Williams has signed his name to.
WJM Where are you? We are enlisting your opinions on Labrador. Labrador has many wonderful resources which are used and not being paid for.
ReplyDeleteTake it up with the guy in charge of those resources, Danny Williams. He has not yet seen a Labrador "buck" that he couldn't pass to Ottawa.
Goose Bay wants a high school auditorium? Danny says Ottawa should pay for it.
Trans-Labrador Highway not completed? Danny says Ottawa should pay for it.
Whatever it is, if it's in Labrador, Danny wants Ottawa to pay for it.
Danny is effectively turning Labrador into the worst of both worlds: a federal responsibility, while the province continues to rake in the revenue, with no obligation to put any of it back into Labrador.
If this keeps up, Labrador might as well seek to become a territory. A real one, not the half-territory that Danny Williams wants it to be.
Labrador needs infrastructure, such as a highway that is finished from Labrador South to Labrador North and it needs to be paved. Where are you now? This gentleman, Mr. Hollett, appears to want to give away the Lower Churchill? Come on WJM offer your opinion.
What do you mean by "give away"?
Ed Hollet is in not much of a position to make such decisions, is he? But I'd really like to know... why is it that ANY proposal to develop ANYTHING in the province is ALWAYS called a "giveaway"?
It's very bizarre.
To anonymous:
ReplyDelete"I say Advertise the Hydroelectric Resource, China and India have billions to invest and so do other investors, if Financiers are willing to invest billions in Concepts that mostly fail, I am sure they would love to invest in Labrador's Hydroelectricity Energy. It is a NO FAIL PROJECT that is guaranteed to make it because of what it is. IT IS ENERGY MR. HOLLETT, first I will take it to the lowest common denominator of who needs it, a person needs it, Industries need it, a family needs it, Communities need it, Cities need it, Provinces need it, Countries need and the World needs IT. It is a NO FAIL RESOURCE Mr. Hollett. Please wake uk before you lead us into another give-away. What is your argument Mr. Hollett?"
So I gather you are in favour of exporting Lower Churchill power. Otherwise, why would anyone invest in the power if they will not recover their ivnestment and make a profit? The whole scheme of building the project and using the power within this province is based on losing money by selling the power at or below its cost of development. otherwise the power wouldn't be "low-cost".
Myles:
If you are familiar with the history of lkabrador power, then you know that the aluminum plant has been one of the great white hopes held out for industrial development in the area.
Is there a single indication anywhere on the planet that any aluminum producer is even vaguely interesting in locating a plant in Labrador?
As for the lesson in business, I think you might re-examine the options here and work them through.
The Ontario/Quebec proposal would have seen pwoer sold into those provinces at a commercially competitive rate in large part because Ontario and Quebec were paying for upgrades to the transmission system separately from developing the Lower Churchill.
The situation you describe is the current problem Danny Williams has, namely to build all of the infrastructure associated with pwoer export, include it in the price of development and still try and sell it at commercially competitive rates. As in the 1960s, this is likely to fall apart because it is simply uneconomical.
In your proposal, we would build the project at a cost of $9.0 billion and keep the power in this province.
How many aluminum smelters and other massive industrial projects would it take, at what rate per kilowatt hour to not only pay for the development but turn a profit as well? It is certainly a number much larger than one. A very simple analysis shows that your proposition is economically unsound. Ludicrous might be a better word for it.
The most viable proposal to develop the Loewer Churchill and produce power for development, power for export ADN profits for the treasury was abandonned.
We now will likely not see a Lower Churchill project whatsoever.
From the above postings, I can see it plainly these two people are proponents that the Lower Churchill deal be done for Central Canada's benefit. Call them what you may, business consultants, lobbyists for the other side, whatever handle you wish, these two people most likely are hired by someone from the Quebec, Ontario side to see that this Lower Churchill is done no differently than the Upper Churchill Energy Project.
ReplyDeleteNo Mr. Hollett I am not in favour of exporting Lower Churchil Power. I think some financier in China or India would act with us to finance this project, in other words would be our backers to create the power here for industries here. But first we have to advertise for industries to come here and get solid contracts, so that the financing for the Lower Churchill Project can be put in place. If the ways and means are out there for Quebec or any other region to finance its resources, the same is there for Newfoundland and Labrador.
If Premier Williams gives into the whims of Business Consultants, or is it Lobbyists on behalf of the other side? These are the groupies from the other side, who are always around, when a project like this arises, looking to win this project over for someone else other than Newfoundland and Labrador. If Premier Williams allows it to happen, he will go down in history with a much more nefarious name than the the former Premier Joseph R. Smallwood has been tagged with since the Upper Churchill Project giveaway.
WJM how in the name of God, can we the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador build any infrastructure anywere our province, when our resources come up for development, either Quebec gets to be the primary beneficiary or Ontario? We don't get paid very much in such instances. One would have to be a magician, not a Premier to operate from that base.
Premier Williams please do not listen to talk and bow to pressure from business consultants or lobbyists.
Premier Joseph Smallwood didn't have people telling him not to make a bad deal, he only had the other side of the coin, the lobbyists from Quebec wanting him to give the deal to them so that Quebec could be the primary beneficiary of the Upper Churchill. Quebec won that one and Newfoundland and Labrador lost big time. As a result we have bee strapped for cash. We are unable to do much of anything for anyone in our province.
The best thing for Mr. Hollett and WJM to do is work on behalf of their province. What an asset that would be.
Yes, please remember we do not have a Magician running the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador with a Magic Wand, we have an ordinary mortal of a Premier. He cannot pull money out of the hat, he has to have viable projects that bring big monies to the province. Do not urge him into making a deal with the devil.
ReplyDeleteIf you want infrastructure for your part of the province, the only way you will get it is if we are the primary beneficiaries of our resources.
What a curious collection of responses.
ReplyDeleteIf a Chinese compnay invests $9.0 billion in the Lower Churchill one of the anonymous posters apprently believes that company woudl expect ntohing in return for their money.
Well, that's nonsense. They would expect to claim the profit. So we get the electricity and all the profit would go to China. That sounds like a marvelous idea for someone who is supposedly concerned with giving away the benefit of our resources.
But wait, someone will claim, there will be massive new industries.
Let's look at western Labrador as the example. The two mines in Lab west use between them 225 megawatts of power.
The Lower Churchill would produce about 3, 000 megawatts.
In order to justify building the project and keeping all the power within the province, we would need - if my math holds up - something like 27 projects comparable to one western Labrador mine in order to make the Keep It for Ourselves scheme work.
Not one.
Not two.
27.
And those 27 new industrial projects plus every single other business in the province cannot export a single ounce of anything.
That would be giving away our resources to benefit others.
That's the only logical conclusion for those who think exporting power is a give away of our resources. You display a curious idea about trade and economics. If we harvest fish and sell fish outside the province - by your logic - we are making someone else the primary beneficiary of our respiryces. You ignore completely that we get money for the resources we sell as part of the trade.
Nope, that would be a resource giveaway by that twisted logic.
By everyone else's logic, we have a resource; others have a need for that resource. So we sell the resource and get the money to spend on things we need. We can haggle on the price but basically the sale of our products and services is how we make money.
Exporting Lower Churchill power makes sense. If done properly it will continue to generate cash for the provincial treasury that we can use to do a whole host of things.
Unless one of you can come up with 27 industries the size of a single iron ore mine, your "keep it all" option doesn't work. And it really doesn't work when you consider that by your own logic, none of those idnsurties could export anythign to anyone.
Otherwise we would be making someone else the primary beneficiary of our resources.
Ed,
ReplyDeleteYou say that the two industries use 225 megawatts between them. That lower churhcill can produce 3000 so by that math we have the capacity for about 26 similar consumers (you said we would need 27) so we are in the ball park.
I for one would rather supply those industries with low cost power so they would move in than I would sell it outright to someone else.
Ask yourself how many well paid and long term jobs those industries would produce. How much would it increase the province's tax base? How many secondary industries would pop up to supply and meet the needs of those industries (suppliers, trucking, retail, hi-tech, etc.)? How much is the secondary offspin?
When you consider that selling the power to Ontario may put a few hundred million directly into provincial coffers I believe thousands of jobs and the economic offspin from them would be far more valuable to the province.
Mr. Hollet you said: "If a Chinese compnay invests $9.0 billion in the Lower Churchill one of the anonymous posters apprently believes that company woudl expect ntohing in return for their money".
ReplyDeleteMr. Hollett I say if a Chinese or Indian Capitalist wants to come in and do the financing, I would presume that there would be negotiations and that our Government would negotiate a contract that would be a fair deal win to the Chinese or Indian Capitalist and for the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador for its resource. There are Capitalists in India and China, now, because of all of the development there , who have billions and those investors want to do something with that money, in other words invest it in a safe place. India and China will take probably another 50 years of development before they are fully immersed in Modernity. That is when every Indian and Chinese will have a Stainless Steel Sink, Bathtub, ca, televisions, computer. Mr. Hollett you get the drift.
If we attract this type of Capitalist Investor, who will negotiate a contract for our resource, where we are satisfied and the Investor is satisfied, maybe, we can also negotiate with that Indian or Chinese a deal where they bring industries that would complement India's and China's development. If so they will set up the industries here and produce the stainless steel, sinks, bathtubs and everything else for development. There you have it all in a capsule, an Investor who is willing to back up the resource, he/she is happy because he/she got a contract where both are happy, both our Government and the Investor.
Mr. Hollet you said: "If a Chinese compnay invests $9.0 billion in the Lower Churchill one of the anonymous posters apprently believes that company woudl expect ntohing in return for their money".
ReplyDeleteMr. Hollett I say if a Chinese or Indian Capitalist wants to come in and do the financing, I would presume that there would be negotiations and that our Government would negotiate a contract that would be a fair deal win to the Chinese or Indian Capitalist and for the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador for its resource. There are Capitalists in India and China, now, because of all of the development there , who have billions and those investors want to do something with that money, in other words invest it in a safe place. India and China will take probably another 50 years of development before they are fully immersed in Modernity. That is when every Indian and Chinese will have a Stainless Steel Sink, Bathtub, ca, televisions, computer. Mr. Hollett you get the drift.
If we attract this type of Capitalist Investor, who will negotiate a contract for our resource, where we are satisfied and the Investor is satisfied, maybe, we can also negotiate with that Indian or Chinese a deal where they bring industries that would complement India's and China's development. If so they will set up the industries here and produce the stainless steel, sinks, bathtubs and everything else for development. There you have it all in a capsule, an Investor who is willing to back up the resource, he/she is happy because he/she got a contract where both are happy, both our Government and the Investor.
The ways that the financing on this project can be done, where Newfoundland and Labrador is the primary beneficiary and the Investor helping with the financing are limitless. There are thousands of big time investors out there, if they knew this project was looking for money to be parked to partner with the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to develop it, and both would get a fair shake.
ReplyDeleteMr. Hollett please don't make the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador look so uninformed and stupid.
These business consultants/lobbyists on behalf of the other side would do anything to discredit the people of this province and its Government.
Premier Williams, please, do not let these people change your mind.
This Project must be done for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.
Mr. Hollett we are working in the same currency as the rest of the Canadian provinces, we no longer use the bartering system here. If we are to survive here we have to conduct our business the same way as the other provinces do when they have resources to be developed. We have to go out there in the marketplace and get the best deal possible. The best deal for financing, the best deal to create industry, the best deal to have primary, secondary and tertiary processsing created here.
ReplyDeleteWhen in Rome, you do as the Romans do, When in Canada, you do as the other Canadian provinces do with their resources
Myles:
ReplyDeleteYour scenario would be marvelous if even one - just one - of those industries actually existed outside your head.
But you don't need one. Or two. or even five.
You need 27.
If you are using low cost power to attract them, then presumably you would not be selling it at current market rates. You likely wouldn't even be selling it at a break-even price. In other words, you'd be selling it at a loss, especially considering that in order to get those jobs, you'd be competing with countires around the globe where all the raw materials for say - the aluminum smelter - doesn't have to be shipped in from outside at extra cost and then shipped out of labrador to markets all at a competitive price.
It's basic economics. Your ideas are pure fantasy. By the same token it is pure fantasy to think that there are limitless sources of financing all of which would be interested in not making money or would be willing to sell power at or below cost.
Mr. Hollett
ReplyDeleteNobody is talking about selling power below cost. What I am talking about are Contracts that are negoitated that are beneficial to all. It can be done.
Mr. Hollett
ReplyDeleteIf you read the business section of the Globe and Mail you will see that companies now are flushed with cash waiting to part their monies somewhere. What better place than a Hydroelectric Energy Project in Newfoundland and Labrador?
Anonymous 1:
ReplyDeleteA contract can be negotiated to sell power outsdie the province that is beneficial to all and that includes provisions to recall pwoer to the province when needed.
It was done in 1991.
Anonymous 2:
What better place? A place where they can make a good return on their investment. A place where the costs of doing business are lower than here. A place where the government doesn't beat the crap out of you at whim.
Plenty of places.
The province has already been branded in that respect.
MR. HOLLETT YOU SAID; A contract can be negotiated to sell power outsdie the province that is beneficial to all and that includes provisions to recall pwoer to the province when needed.
ReplyDeleteIt was done in 1991.
Anonymous 2:
What better place? A place where they can make a good return on their investment. A place where the costs of doing business are lower than here. A place where the government doesn't beat the crap out of you at whim.
Plenty of places.
The province has already been branded in that respect.
MR. HOLLETT;
A CONTRACT CAN BE WRITTEN WHICH PLEASE ALL PARTIES. IT HAS BEEN DONE MILLIONS OF TIME SINCE BUSINESS BEGAN.
MR. HOLLETT IT IS PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO BRAND OUR PROVINCE IN A BAD LIGHT. ENOUGH SAID
Mr. Hollett I meant to say in my last post that IT IS IDEAS like yours that shed us in a bad light.
ReplyDeleteThat said Mr. Hollett do you expect us to keep making deals like the Upper Churchill Hydroelectric Project where Quebec Hydro gets hydro energy for one fifth of a cent and it has made billions and billions over the past 40 years with another 40 years to go before the maturity of that contract. Or Voisey's Bay where Sudbury, Ontario and Thompson, Manitoba get their lives extended from the Labrador Nickel ore that is shipped out to them, while Newfoundland and Labrador is not only losing its ore, it is losing it people who have to migrate to these places to find work. How sick is that? What type of crazy politics and economics were practised there? If we keep making these types of deals we will be forever committing economic suicide.
WJM how in the name of God, can we the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador build any infrastructure anywere our province, when our resources come up for development, either Quebec gets to be the primary beneficiary or Ontario?
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean "gets to be"?
Who gets them to be?
In either case, we shouldn't be putting so much stock in resources. Resource megaprojects are an absolutely lousy way to diversify the economy.
Premier Joseph Smallwood didn't have people telling him not to make a bad deal,
Premier Joseph Smallwood also only had three opposition members facing him in his final term, where the Lower Churchill, Labrador Linerboard, and other bad things happened.
he only had the other side of the coin, the lobbyists from Quebec
Lobbyists?!?!??
Quebec won that one and Newfoundland and Labrador lost big time.
Quebec was willing and able to take the risk.
We were not.
If you want infrastructure for your part of the province, the only way you will get it is if we are the primary beneficiaries of our resources.
ReplyDeleteIOC, Wabush Mines, GWAC, and Voisey's Bay, already bring in hundreds of millions of dollars for the provincial treasury from Labrador.
Very, very, very, very little of that comes back north of the Strait of Belle Isle.
Where is the Newfoundland nationalists' outrage?
Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteBy the Internet convention that typing in capitals denotes shouting, I gather you find this exchange frustrating. I can understand it since what i have posted flies in the face of comments made here you evidently support.
I fail to understand though, what ideas I have that put our province in a bad light. All I have noted is that that developing the Lower Churchill based on the export of power is the most sensible, financially viable option.
of course, I am not the one who has taken to insulting everyone who seeks to negotiate a contract, who has attempted to rig negotiations or otherwise created an atmosphere in which companies are taking their investments to other parts of the world.
Typical of some arguments, you immediately hold up the Upper Churchill bogeyman. Well, let me assure you that if you look under your bed there is no demon lurking there waiting to grab you by the ankles when you get out of bed. The Upper Churchill contract is long in the past and provided we do not let ourselves once again be bamboozled into believing that one single local politician is the sole source of our salvation, we will be just fine.
Simply put, I do not share your negative, jaundiced view of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians now or in the past. I have faith that they can and will do great things particularly once they get past the misinformation and the fearmongering of some politicians and their supporters or former supporters.
As for the strange economics, we have seen an example of such strange economics in this post. It is like the old Sprung cumcumber factory: founded on everything but a simple and sound economic basis. The shortcomings of the approach - obvious to anyone able to think - are dismissed by pointing to rosey and entirely fantastic pictures of riches to come. That is the sort of nonsense we must shed, along with the worship of a single hero-leader.
Fortunately though, that sort of old-fashioned view - the kind that supported the upper Churchill contract - is confined to a handful of people these days. As much as some politicians might like to exploit bogeymen under the bed for their own purposes, those sorts of simplistic arguments don't hold people's attention for very long.
Quebec won that one and Newfoundland and Labrador lost big time.
ReplyDeleteQuebec was willing and able to take the risk.
WJM to the above question you said: We were not.
WJM YOU ARE SO CONFLICTING.
It is unbelievable how far some of those business consultants/lobbyists will go to lobby away the resources of the province of Newfoundland and Labrador. The "me syndrome" in these people is very obvious. These people only care about themselves and the party for which they are lobbying, in the case of the Lower Churchill Hydro Development, it would be Quebec and Ontario. The lobbyists never think about the masses of us who have to migrate by the thousands out of our beautiful province every year. That is and was the problem in Newfoundland and Labrador since we entered Canada, we have those who are willing to sell their soul to get ahead themselves. It is shocking to know we have such people amongst us.
ReplyDeleteIt is amazing the extent to which people who have nothing of substance to offer to a discussion will :
ReplyDeletea. slander people; and,
b. do so from the cowardly position of anonymity
I am not slandering people, please do not be so sensitive. I am slandering what those people are proposing. That is to AGAIN have our resources exported out of here with nothing in return. China and India are coming on stream with 2.5 billion people wanting to be the owners of everything from a stainless steel sink to a car. China has even proposed to fiannce a $5 billion oil pipeline for Western Canada. I am sure we could find finaciers in either of those countries to avail of the Lower Churchill Energy and they would set up industris in Labrador to make the products they need. We have to advertise the type of businesses we would like to create and the contract conditions under which we want to create them.
ReplyDeleteWhen there is such a World demand for the resources of the type that the province of Newfoundland and Labrador has, there is no reason in this world why we should have to export or ship them out of the province.
We have hydroelectric energy, iron ore, nickel and other important ores in Labrador; and we have the energy there to refine them. There is a big demand for Aluminun in the world, why not attract that industry? There are so many industries that could be set up in Labrador with the energy that will come on stream with the Lower Churchill, and industries DO and WILL locate where there is a ready supply of resources and energy. Why do business consultants/lobbyists from this province not come on side with the people of this province and lobby to have the industries located here. I cannot believe we would have people living amongst us with IDEAS such as those proposed on this site to export our resources out of a province which has mass out-migration. That type of mentality is anti-patriotic.
If we get the industries because of our resources then we will create hundreds and maybe thousands of jobs here directly and indirectly with the amount of energy that will come out of the Lower Churchill.
"That is to AGAIN have our resources exported out of here with nothing in return."
ReplyDeleteThis is part of the gross misrepresentnation in your position.
The power is not given away. It will be sold. For cash. In the same way people sell all sorts of things.
Hydro-electricity doesn't tend to produce large numbers of jobs in and of itself.
Alright, there is a possibility of industries locating here. However, there is little chance there will be 27 within the next five years. Theren't have been that many in the past 50.
You seem unable to fathom my ideas. I find it hard to believe that there are people still running around advocating the same ideas that led to the Upper Churchill in the first place or the smalelr scale fiasco at the Sprung greenhouse.
I want the power not be exported, I want our resources to create jobs here in Labrador.
ReplyDeleteMy family has been so ravaged by out-migration because of the fact we keep nothing here in the name of resouces in this province to be processed here and to create jobs here.
It is a very loney place for me and the couple of my family members who are left behind. Our politicians cannot keep doing this to our people and our place. We have to start building up this place, and the only way to do it is NOT to export our resources, but instead we have to look for contracts to keep those resources here to be refined here and to create jobs and economies here in Newfoundland and Labrador.
Even if we were getting what our resouces were worth to the World and we got Cash for everything, without industries there still wouldn't be any jobs here. How can we keep people in a place where there are no jos and no economies? Please explain that position to me.
Yes, China is building a pipeline to export oil from Fort Mac to be shipped to China to be refined there, not in Alberta. Alberta sells its resources to other countries and makes money from royalties, tax dollars from the workers producing the oil and business taxes from the companies coming here to invest their money. By the way, capital investors don't invest their money in many businesses that fail, otherwise the stock markets would be worthless as would your union pensions or mutual funds. They are investing in Alberta because it is a business friendly environment to invest in thanks to policies enacted by Ralph Klein in the mid to late 1990's.
ReplyDeleteEd has a point about wanting companies to invest capital into building newer smelters or other capital projects when they have already spent billions building one in some other place 10-20 years ago. These capital projects are built to be amoritized over a 25-30 year period. If your were to look at the cost of building the Lower Churchill, 9 billion?, and then the cost of a smelter or refinery, another 5 billion?, than that's 14 billion total expenditure to be recovered. It would be cheaper to upgrade the existing transmission lines and the older refineries and smelters than to start from scratch. The environmental reviews, engineering and other beauracratic obstacles take up an enormous amount of time and money, especially from the activists and special interest groups who would challenge every move the govt. and business would make. Not to mention other factors which aren't being addressed, see: http://vocm.com/news-info.asp?id=15913
I agreed with the way Danny handled the Accord but he has shown an abrasive attitude when dealing with the business community and investors. These entities aren't beholden to public opinion, like politicians, only shareholders. They have 5,10, 25 year plans, not 4 year get re-elected platforms. They can wait you guys out longer than you can wait them out. Danny could have had Ben Nevis started in the engineering phase by now and that project would have been secured on the books when the price of oil was around 70$ per barrel. Now it is around 60$ and will drop to around 50$ with the hugh amounts of oil to come online in North America by 2010 when the oilsands start producing about a million barrels a day. But Danny only did what the majority of the Lenin/Marxists nationalists wanted. Leave it in the ground until we get what we want, let the water flow to the ocean until we get what we want.
I am a free market capitalist, a slightly right of center conservative. There are some Liberals (Ed) who are also right of center. There are way to many hard core socialists like Myles in NL who are shouting louder than those who understand the basics of economic principles. He still has that dumb Castro quote on his main page, still fantasizing about the revolution.
I also think anonymouses should be able to think of a handle or moniker since it is way to confusing trying to follow the debate here. your could use your mother's maiden name or the name of your dog/cat for example.
"Whether man thinks he can or can't, they are both right." Henry Ford
Yes, indeed China is investing money in Fort MacMurray to export oil. But there are investors in China, if they were invited, would come to this province and finance the Lower Churchill with this province. I am postitive the arrangement can be made where a Chinese investor would get involved with the backing of the Lower Churchill, and, no doubt, set up other industries here utilizing that energy to produce the things the Chinese need for their developing economy. The Chinese are going crazy for modern gadgets and there are 1.2 billion of them. Arrangements can be made, there is no doubt about it, where we can develop the Lower Churchill, keep the power here in Labrador, and to boot have industries located in Labrador because of that energy, industries which will manufacture many things that the Chinese need.
ReplyDeleteIt will never happen unless we advertise this scenario to the Chinese Investor. The first process would be to find that sort of investor.
Edgar you said this: "If you were to look at the cost of building the Lower Churchill, 9 billion?, and then the cost of a smelter or refinery, another 5 billion?, than that's 14 billion total expenditure to be recovered".
I say these costs will be recovered faster than you think with the scenario I gave above. Lower Churchill Energy is a renewable Energy and has the attribute of being almost non-pollutant. If the investor can bring in industries to absorb this energy and a market like China is there to absorb the products made by this industry, isn't that all that is needed to make that project work?
We have to say an ABSOLUTE NO for once in our life. We have exported every resource we have allowed to be developed and where has it gotten us? Nowhere I say, if you think of the economies we have created here in NL, but one thing is for sure we have less resources, we have gotten very little for what we have allowed to be developed, and by doing it the way we allowed it to be done, we have caused massive out-migration in this province.
Mr. Hollet you said: "Typical of some arguments, you immediately hold up the Upper Churchill bogeyman. Well, let me assure you that if you look under your bed there is no demon lurking there waiting to grab you by the ankles when you get out of bed. The Upper Churchill contract is long in the past and provided we do not let ourselves once again be bamboozled into believing that one single local politician is the sole source of our salvation, we will be just fine".
ReplyDeleteWould you please explain by there is no demon lurking there. Do you mean that the Upper Churchill Contract was an above board Contract? I am perplexed by the statement you made and I am sorry that I cannot discern what you are trying to tell me there. I would like an explanation please.
If Alcoa is looking to places like Iceland (population 300,000) as a source of power that will let them build smelters, why not NL (population 500,000)?
ReplyDeleteI bet there are a lot more Alcoas out thert too.
Ed Hollett says we need 27 IOC's to do this but do we? Just because IOC uses a set amount of power who says some other industry wouldn't want much more than IOC uses and then the number required comes down right? I hate it when people use bits and pieces of information like that to pull the wool over people's eyes.
Who says 4 or 5 major industries couldn't gobble up most of that power if the right ones were interested?
ALCAN did it in BC decades ago when they spent 3 billion (in today's money) to develop a hydro project and use the power, now years later they are still there and still providing jobs.
How can anyone in their right mind say the uppder churchill contract is long in the past. Hell, we are living with that today and will continue to live with it for another 35 years.
ReplyDeleteBoy the federal boogy men are really in force here these days.
By the way Hollett, are you saying that if several major indusries like Alcoa or Alcan signed long term power contracts with the province that wouldn't be as good (as far as gaining financing for the project) as if Ontario Hydro signed on? BULL!!! A long term customer is a long term customer and you damn well know it!
"By the way Hollett, are you saying that if several major indusries like Alcoa or Alcan signed long term power contracts with the province that wouldn't be as good (as far as gaining financing for the project) as if Ontario Hydro signed on?"
ReplyDeleteApparently simple civility - including actually not posting from behind a black screen has gone out the window.
I guess having your fundamental assumptions directly challenged frays the nerves a bit. Like finding out there is no Santa.
To the other anonymous first, if you want to despise something, despise the ability to miss the point entirely and think that counts for something.
The point about the 27 industries was just to give the scope of the problem of finding enough industry here to provide guaranteed long-term power purchases.
So maybe some industries will need more power. Cut the number in half. That's still 13 or 14 industries sucking huge volumes of power.
But here's a point raised earlier and so far ignored:
Name one new industry that is actually interested in locating in Labrador.
If you can name one, then ask what you would expect from the company as part of the privilege of coming here and creating jobs. Tax breaks to overcome shipping costs to market that price your product too high? Forget that stuff. We don't do subsidies any more.
Internationally competitive royalty regimes? Nope. We want everything we can possibly get and if we don't get what we want, you don't get the resource. We don't get the jobs either but hey, we can say we haven't given anything away.
Now repeat that times 14 or 27 or even five.
See how many companies you have at the end of the process compared to say the ones busily locating everywhere else.
If we build the Lower Churchill and export the power at a good price, plus ensure we have recall provisions we can actually get the thing done successfully.
And for the other anonymous who wrote "ALCAN did it in BC decades ago when they spent 3 billion (in today's money) to develop a hydro project and use the power, now years later they are still there and still providing jobs.", recall the experience of IOC and Wabush Mines.
They built their own power plant before the Upper Churchill. They still own 225 megawatts of power through Twin Falls along with NL Hydro. IOC and Wabush mines agreed to close their plant to make the Upper Churchill run more effectively. They eventually - after a long wrangle - got a power contract that let them generate power cheaply as if they still operated the plant they invested in.
Now they are being told to get stuffed and be prepared to pay power rates that would be at least eight times higher than current rates and eight times more than if they still generated their own power through their own power plant. IOC is still there providing jobs and revenue for the province. They are planning a $500 million upgrade to their plant.
Would ALCAN consider operating in that kind of business climate?
Since you don't like being called "Hollett" how about "Mr. Hollett"
ReplyDeleteYou are the one who said the upper churchill contract is behind us and basically to get over it. Well IOC signed a long term contract for that cheap power and that's nearly expired. Shouldn't they live by whatever contract they signed just like you expect us to do? I guess by your logic we should let them get a new contract at the same price and then go ahead and sign on the dotted line with another one sided upper churchill contract at the same time.
Why is it that we as a province are expected to shut up about the bad deal we signed but you stand up for IOC when it looks they aren't happy that one they signed is about to expire? That kind of thinking is what got us where we are.
Here's a thought. Why won't the province use some outside the box thinking on this?
ReplyDeleteWhy not try to partner with industries like Alcoa or others to buy up as much of the power as possible for internal use. If they can get say 1000 megawatts spken for then sign agreements to export the rest with the agreement that they can slowly reclaim that power over time as new industries are attracted. Say 200 megawatts every 5 - 10 years as needed.
This way industry can be grown, the bankers should be satisfied.
If it's all signed away for export now then the door is closed and what hope is there to attract any industry?
I don't know much about this but it seems like it might be something to investigate or at least consider.
Thank You "Ed Hollet" .
ReplyDeleteYou have given us the opportunity to understand what is really going on.
You could give the power away to industries for cost and they still wouldn't come here because of the uncertainty. Yes, that's the buzzword folks, uncertainty. No investor in their right mind likes uncertainty. All they have to do is visit this site and others like VOCM to get a handle on the 'attitude' of those in the workforce and general population as an indicator of the policies of the government. Danny has a 70% approval rating of his piss and vinegar attitude. There are no clear cut rules and regs for ALL companies and industries. Everyone gets their own deal dependent on who they know it seems. A level playing field is required and that is not happening as the govt. (people) seem to want to renew or reneg on a deal once one party appears to make more than was originally expected.
ReplyDeleteUntil the people of NL forget, yes forget, about the Upper Churchill and move on nothing new will happen. It appears that NL wants to make up what was lost on the Upper with every new deal. No-one could forsee the huge amount of inflation in energy prices from the 60's til now. To expect those persons 40 years ago to have this kind of foresight is hindsight and pure folly.
Someone mentioned the 'Giveaway gene' they forgot to mention the stubbornness gene which seems much more apparent. Your best and brightest leave to prosper in an environment that I am advocating and you still stubbornly refuse to accept what works in favour of what you 'believe' will work. Socialism/nationalism at its worse.
For things to change, you have to change...
http://www.thesecret.tv/movie/trailer.html
Spend 5 bucks and begin the change in your collective attitude and the fortunes of NL.
Cheers,
Edgar
Edgar
ReplyDeleteYou said: "You could give the power away to industries for cost and they still wouldn't come here because of the uncertainty. Yes, that's the buzzword folks, uncertainty. No investor in their right mind likes uncertainty". The statement above was made by Edgar.
In my eyes you are exaggerating grossly. The Upper Churchill deal has been in being for 40 years and not once has it been interrupted by Newfoundland and Labrador. Quebec has collected billions of dollars over the past 40 years and there are still another 40 years with billions to go to Quebec. Why are you maligning this province?
Based on the statment you made above Edgar: Why is it that businesses go to places like the Stans of Central Asia, places like Kazakhstan, Kirghistan, Uzbkistan and Turkmenistan? These places have no set rule of law, they are like the wild, wild west ruled by war lords and yet the big oil companies go there to do business in those places of uncertainty. Edgar you should make an apology to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, there is no resemblance in Newfoundland and Labrador to the uncertainty businesses face in places like the Stans of Central Asia. Your words are what gives uncertainty to this province. All we need is a couple of people spreading such statements and we have a problem where there is no problem for business exists at all. Please do not give me this bull about industries wouldn't come to Newfoundland and Labrador for cost because of the uncertainty. Obviously you do not know what you are speaking about to make such absurd statements.
I will not apologize for speaking the truth. Your collective attitude stinks. Those places you mentioned above offer a greater rate of return above the uncertainty because of the piss poor wages they pay their workers and lax environmental and occupational health standards. And those companies are leaving Russia and the old commie countries because of the Nationalist like Putin who are nationalizing any industry that makes money. Sound familiar?
ReplyDeleteWhy won't companies invest in NL? They know all about the hydro potential. They know about Hibernia and the other deposits. The problem is that the govt. wants ownership and investors don't want that arrangement because governments change every 4 years and different elected govt's will have a different view of how they believe things should be, especially if those entities start making more money than was originally anticipated. Believe what you want, my words aren't the reason the businesses aren't there. It is because of your collective negative attitudes which are reflective in your dear leader. Anyone who disagrees with the 'popular' opinion is attacked and vilified in the hope that they will remain quiet.
Did you watch the movie? From your response I would guess no!
All I can say Busines Consultants and Lobbyists who want to get their grubby hands into certain projects will say or do anything, regardless, of what or who it is going to hurt, to try to sway resources in the direction that it will benefit them.
ReplyDeleteThat is the reason we have had so so many problems here in Newfoundland and Labrador over the years. There are too many outside forces pulling for outside interests for things to go smoothly in this province.
Edgar you said: "Those places you mentioned above offer a greater rate of return above the uncertainty because of the piss poor wages they pay their workers and lax environmental and occupational health standards".
ReplyDeleteI say Edgar that is what we do not want to do at present is to give away our resources for a low rate of return for the province. That is what we practised in the past, and we now want to throw of that yoke. We want to have a decent rate of return for our resources, and we want economies and jobs to go along with it, and if we do have to take on a partner to help us with the financing, of course, we want that partner to have a fair share of the remuneration as well. Contracts can be negotiated to create a fair playing field for all parties concerned.
Oh by the way, Exxon is a producer of Oil in China. Guess what? China gets 51 per cent of its Oil in that partnership. Premier Williams was asking for 5 per cent equity. Exxon walked away from the table in Newfoundland and Labrador negotiations on that figure.
Please do not give us any more nonsense about businesses not getting a fair share in Newfoundland and Labrador and having a feeling of insecurity. In the past it was so lopsided towards industry, that it caused us to almost go bankrupt. Every Newfoundlander and Labradorian owes a debt of $23,000. Six times that of some of the other provinves.
I can name many businesses which operate in countries with insecure governments. Some Canadian businesses operate in Cuba. Nobody knows what will happen there when Fidel Castro dies. If you read the business sections of the National papers, you will see how certain companies bottom lines are affected by uncertainties in the countries they operate in. These uncertainties come in the form of probable coups de etats from unstable governments. You will never see a coup de etat in the province of Newfoundland and Labrador. That is the biggest risk a business faces in any country
In the past we gave away the Shop, we have no intention of doing so this time around. Let the resources stay in the ground. At least it is money in the bank. With the pressure on all types of commodities in today's world with so much development going on in populated countries like China and India, the big industries will be knocking at our door when this slow down is over. As you probably know, it does appear the world is going into a slowdown for awhile, maybe a recession or even a depression. I am going by what the analysts are saying in the business section of the papers and on business TV.
"If it's all signed away for export now then the door is closed and what hope is there to attract any industry?"
ReplyDeleteThis is the sort of statement that is fundamentally wrong. Every single power contract including the Upper Churchill contract and all the draft agreements never signed included provisions to recall power for use within the province.
Every. Single. One.
If there is an Alcan or an ALCOA plant or a widget maker that needs power, the power can be had.
So on that basis, what exactly is the problem for everyone with the Premier signing a deal that would get the project done, built and paid for?
Oh yes...tiffany...if only you were real and not the invetned name of one of the Premier's staffers or other party workers, people might take you seriously.
Let me tell you Mr. Hollett, I have never shaken hands with Premier Williams in my life. Although I did see the man at a distance at a Brad Gushue Meet-and-Greet at the Convention Center. But as to knowing the man, I do not know him from Adam.
ReplyDeleteWhat resources we have, that we do not know about, or I should say that haven't been found in the ground or the water, from this day forward, nothing should be exported. The resource that we are aware of that is up for development, the Lower Churchill, there is no way that a contract should be signed on that resource unless the province of Newfoundland and Labrador becomes the primary beneficiary, with power staying in Labrador and industries that will result from the users of the energy should remain there as well.
Mr. Hollett I have listened to you on Talk Shows and I have read your postings to blogs (I assume it is you) and I will say this, you do an admirable job in trying to toe our resources out of here for the benefit of the other provinces and the benefit of the industries who have an interest in our resources.
ReplyDeleteIf only the Premier could hire a couple of people with your ability to act on the province of Newfoundland and Labrador's behalf to lobby for us and spread the message to the World that we are looking for financiers to do business with. I would only be too happy if he considered you and, of course, if he could secure your loyalty for the province and its resources.
We need to tell the World that we are seeking a fiancier who will help develop a World Class resource, the Lower Churchill Hydroelectric Project. A resource the whole World wishes it could get its hand on. The province will want its fair share from the development and we are willing to give the financier who wants to partner with us his/her fair share as well. The resource will not be exported, but will remain in Newfoundland and Labrador to attract industries for Labrador's use. If only you could turn around your mode of thinking and focus it on the well-being of this province, I would like to see the Premier hire you in a heartbeat. Mr. Hollett you have a great way with words; and there is no doubt about it, from the times that I have heard you on radio shows, if you are the same person, you do a darn good job and I am always impressed by your words and dismayed because of your loyalty is not to the province of Newfoundland and Labrador, but always for the other side. Anyone who is hired to do this job, the number one attribute that the person will need to possess is Loyalty to the province of Newfoundland and Labrador.
I truly see you as a wonderful asset if you could change your way of thinking. I don't know if it is possible.
Please take this as a compliment.
Mr. Hollett I have listened to you on Talk Shows and I have read your postings to blogs (I assume it is you) and I will say this, you do an admirable job in trying to toe our resources out of here for the benefit of the other provinces and the benefit of the industries who have an interest in our resources.
ReplyDeleteIf only the Premier could hire a couple of people with your ability to act on the province of Newfoundland and Labrador's behalf to lobby for us and spread the message to the World that we are looking for financiers to do business with. I would only be too happy if he considered you and, of course, if he could secure your loyalty for the province and its resources.
We need to tell the World that we are seeking a fiancier who will help develop a World Class resource, the Lower Churchill Hydroelectric Project. A resource the whole World wishes it could get its hand on. The province will want its fair share from the development and we are willing to give the financier who wants to partner with us his/her fair share as well. The resource will not be exported, but will remain in Newfoundland and Labrador to attract industries for Labrador's use. If only you could turn around your mode of thinking and focus it on the well-being of this province, I would like to see the Premier hire you in a heartbeat. Mr. Hollett you have a great way with words; and there is no doubt about it, from the times that I have heard you on radio shows, if you are the same person, you do a darn good job and I am always impressed by your words and dismayed because of your loyalty is not to the province of Newfoundland and Labrador, but always for the other side. Anyone who is hired to do this job, the number one attribute that the person will need to possess is Loyalty to the province of Newfoundland and Labrador.
I truly see you as a wonderful asset if you could change your way of thinking. I don't know if it is possible.
Please take this as a compliment.
Would the peolple of NL be willing to work for the same wages and conditions as the people in China? Do you want the same environmental standards and brides to be done in NL as is in China? Go ahead and compare apples to oranges if you like. Danny and the 70% who have approved of his tactics have pissed in the well. I won't be drinking that kool-aid.
ReplyDeleteEd, you're alright as long as you agree with them and believe in the same things as Tiffany and her ilk.
Go ahead Tiffany and keep using the ideology that got you where you are today. Eventually someone will see things your way, right?
Edgar: I have A few questions for you to understand why you think, Newfoundlanders and Labradorians with so many resources in their province should have to resort to being beggers?
ReplyDeleteWhy should we have to ship our Nickel Ore off to Sudbury, Ontario and Thompson, Manitoba to be smelted there? The Nickel ore will be shipped out of this province for the next 30 years so as to allow those 2 cities another 15 years of life. Why couldn't we have been granted the right to smelt our Nickel in this province? And Why, when the Nickel was sent off to the 2 cities in Central Canada, Sudbury, Ontario and Thompson, Manitoba did the workers in Voisey's Bay, who mined the Nickel Ore there get paid 30 per cents less than their counterparts in those 2 cities, and with less benefits?
Why Edgar are you supporting those cities rights to be paid more and to have the right to use our ore and to use their own resources as well. Nothing ever gets sent to Newfoundland and Labrador for secondary processing. Why?
Why Edgar can't we have the same latitude with our Oil that we brought into Canada that Alberta has with its Oil? Why Edgar does Exxon have the right to keep an Oil field in a fallow state for years, no matter what this province says, and Ottawa won't assist us in having the fallow field legislation lifted.
Why Edgar did Ottawa use our hugh fish resource to the point where it is now almost fished to extinction, and Ottawa still allows those rogue nations to fish the last fish off the Grand Banks of Newfoundland?
Why Edgar do you not speak up about those inequities?
Why Edgar did Ottawa not stand up to Quebec when we asked it to grant us a corridor to conduct the Upper Churchill Energy back 40 years ago and now Quebec has reaped the billions with one-fifth of a cent Hydroelectric energy?
Which province wouldn't be angry Edgar, if it had gotten the raw deal that Newfoundland and Labrador has gotten.
Edgar your mad as a hatter because we do not want to give up anymore of our resources. Good gracious what type of ideologies do you possess? And did I hear you say you were once a resident of this province, or am I mistaken? All the qustions I asked you, I would like you to answer to justify your reasonings to why we should give away anymore resources. All these injustices are crippling to this province. Can't you see that?
I cannot believe you are so against us getting ahead. Are you some sort of business consultant who is making a wonderful living of berating and belitting in this province at the same time are you could be lobbying away our resources? You won't be the only one, if you answer yes. There have been many others who have made an excellent living doing that. I can remember a former Premier and a few others who have done so. It is disheartening to me when I see people writing the unkind things that they do, just because we are trying to get a better deal out of our resources and position ourselves a little better in Canada.
You like the rest of Canadians are sickening. You appear to want the people of this province to roll over and die. What kind of mentality do you have. A very covetous one as far as I can see.
By the way Edgar your ideology is what is keeping this province down, not mine and my ilk. I am trying to get a better deal for our people which will be paid for out of our own resources.
Mr. Hollett,
ReplyDeleteI noticed that you also have a blog that is intended to spread your own version of the truth. I find it odd that you would be spending so much time posting comments to someone elses blog rather than updating your own.
Is it that nobody will listen to you out there, you don't know how to attract readers and you got lonely? Or is it that the people who regularly visit this site are getting too close to the truth and it's making you uncomfortable.
I suspect both.
Thank you - last anonymous poster - for providing my previous contention that some have nothing to offer but slander hurled from the cowardly cloak of anonymity.
ReplyDeleteIf you take a look at my own posts you will see they are updated at least daily. The readership is at is it and that too can be readily seen by anyone who wants to check it out.
As for tiffany, I take it my original contention about you was likely right. You use the standrd line that eople who criticise the existing administration are not good Newfoundlanders or labradorians. Too bad you can't change your way of thinking.
Overall, though, I notice that no one has commented on the point that the premier can sucessfully develop the Lower Churchill and export power with the ability to recall for lcoal industry. Fundamentally on that point he is on the right track. The question will be whether or not he can actually cut the deal.
Mr. Hollet the last poster under Anon is not me.
ReplyDeleteI have never said that we should not critize the exisitng administration, we have to. I do it myself. I am not wholly behind everything our Premier is saying. What I am standing by though is that not one ounce of ore should be exported out of this province for secondary processing. Not one barrel oil should go out of this province for secondary processing. Not one fish should go out of this province for secondary processing. Everything that is a resource of this province should be refined here.
I have taken on Saviours before, and while I agree with a lot of our Premier Danny Williams has been saying, I do not agree with everything and far from it.
Mr. Hollett I will say this, " Never, Never Again, will I adopt a politician as a Saviour.
I know only too well the failings of politicians. They can be traitors given the latitude and the time.
Also Mr. Hollett I know our politicians can become bigger exploiters of our resources than any bloodsucker Corporation out there in the rest of the world. We have to keep our eyes focused on our politicians as well. NEVER should we let our guard down. POLITIICIANS should not have the influence to do as they please with our resources, the way they have had in the past, that is to distribute the resources for their advantage. POLITICIANS were elected BY US to do what is right FOR US with our resouces. We appointed them through election to do what is the right thing for the GOOD OF THE PEOPLE/ELECTORATE.
ReplyDeleteI will reiternate this though Mr. Hollett "I would rather have you LOYALLY on the side of this province lobbying for our resouces to be exploited for the good of the people here in Newfoundland and Labrador THAN against the province lobbying for our resources be exploited for BIG INDUSTRY for the other provinces. You are a force to be dealt with when you are coming from the other side. I see you as a very skilled lobbyist, again if you are the person, whose words I have been following for the past couple of years. Again please take this as a compliment.
ReplyDeleteEd,
ReplyDeleteI thank you for your comments.
Your bio says that you were a special assistant to 2 premiers. Would you mind telling us who those premier's were and for what periods you worked for them. I believe they were both Liberal governments but can you confirm who the premiers were?
Also, your company, Gryphon Public Affairs is supposedly involved in government relations. Can you tell us which, if any, industrial enterprises or governments, at any level (fedral or provincial in any Canadian provinces)that you have a relationship with.
I think disclosure of this sort of information will help us determine whether if you may have a specific reason, other than simply personal perspective, for your comments.
You said yourself that anonymous posting doesn't allow you to know who you are addressing so it's only fair that you disclose any potential relationships that may impact the public's understanding of your comments.
I am addressing two posters in this posting.
ReplyDeleteMr. Hollet I have never worked for any Premier anywhere in my life. I am just an ordinary person who is sick and tired of what has happened to our resources. I am now focusing on what should happen to our resources in the future. I want our resources to create economies here in Newfoundland and Labrador so that you and I can stay in our province and work here as well.
Edgar - What do you think of what is happening this morning with the Federal Government's decision on Income Trusts? I think you would attribute that type of move by our Federal Government to a move that could possibly be made by Putin or Russia. People who are near retirement and have a lot of their money invested in these trusts have had their shares rendered out about 30 per cent. At least that is the per centage some of them are down? You seem to talk about in your postings the image something like this move creates in the World Markets.
Patriot
ReplyDeleteSorry the first half of my last post should be ignored. I misread who posted. I thought it was Mr. Ed Hollett who asked the question but it was Patriot asking Ed a question.
Myles:
ReplyDeleteSimple questions; simple answers.
I worked for Wells and very briefly for Tobin during the transition. I have often debated making mention of the second one since it was for such a short period. If you read my own blog you will see I have mentioned this quite clearly on a number of occasions.
As for my business, I have no clients in the energy industry whatsoever and, in fact, never have. That's the relevent portion for these conversations, I would think.
My clients are in the health and manufacturing sectors and none are involved directly or indirectly with energy.
I maintain a policy of not discussing my clients on my blog nor of discussing their affairs in public; they speak for themselves. That is a hard and fast rule to avoid exactly the sort of suspicion that can arise in a public forum. It goes beyond that since I appreciate that my blog is read fairly widely.
The blog and my comments here reflect my own personal interest in public policy issues such as energy, economic development etc.
To be absolutely clear, government relations in my case does not mean lobbying. I never have lobbied government on behalf of a client.
The nature of public relations is that some of clients need to understand how government operates, how decisions are made and how they should approach an issue in order to best represent their own interests. Government relations is acknowledged sub-specialty of PR and since I have the background, I highlight it.
With all that said, it would certainly be welcome if other people making public comments clearly identified themselves. Sadly, that isn't the case.
My comments are my comments and should be taken as such. I claim no special insight into anything but I do happen to have some knowledge of certain things. As I have always mainatiend, people can read what i write and then can and should go off and do further reading before making up their own mind.
The people of the province of nfld & lab have to change their way of thinking or they will never get anything positive going in the province. The people in general expect a free lunch.
ReplyDeleteJust listen to the call in shows and you will understand what I meant. Every community expects and yes even demands that it have a fully staffed K to 12 school, regardless of whether or not there are enogh kids to justify it. Every community wants paved streets, water and sewer, yet many of these communities do not have a tax base to support these. Every community wants a fishplant or some other such entity whether or not it can be justified.
The people feel entitiled to have all the modern conveniences yet they don't give any thought to where the finances come from to provide these services.
Bottom line folks, many communities are going to have to be rationalized. people are going to have to move to areas where the work is or get used to living withlittle or no services.
Wake up and smell the java!
Tiffany, please excuse my late reply, I have a business to operate during the day and couldn't reply to you sooner.
ReplyDeleteWhy should we have to ship our Nickel Ore off to Sudbury, Ontario and Thompson, Manitoba to be smelted there? The Nickel ore will be shipped out of this province for the next 30 years so as to allow those 2 cities another 15 years of life. Why couldn't we have been granted the right to smelt our Nickel in this province? And Why, when the Nickel was sent off to the 2 cities in Central Canada, Sudbury, Ontario and Thompson, Manitoba did the workers in Voisey's Bay, who mined the Nickel Ore there get paid 30 per cents less than their counterparts in those 2 cities, and with less benefits?
Our elected officials, acting on the will of the people, signed an agreement with Inco to export the ore to those 2 cities and eventually build a smelter on the island to process the ore, a Hydromet facility I think. Why did the peoples of NL not insist that the smelter be built in Labrador near the mine thus reducing shipping costs instead of the Island portion? I am assuming that is why they are shipping ore to an existing facility, to get a better ROI to eventually pay the extra shipping costs incurred for the Argentia facility. Why didn't you have the foresight to lobby govt. at the time to insist on the facility be built on the Labrador mainland, as WJM rightly proclaims, in order to allow the Inco people to operate a business within sound economic principles?
The workers at Voisey's bay signed an agreement with Inco to begin work at the facility for those starting wages and benefits and when their contract was up they went on strike for those better wages and benefits as their union rights gave them the ability to do so. It is called an agreement and that was the original one that they signed. Now they have a new agreement and I am assuming one with better wages and benefits.
The above has nothing to do with the Lower Churchill deal that this post is about. You are angry at all the past failures of our elected officials and are advocating that the next bunch of industry players who want to do business in NL has to make up for the past mismanagement on the part of our elected officials. It needs to be fair for everyone involved but the word fair is certainly open for discussion. Fair to me is 50/50, fair to you seems to be 100/0 for NL and fair to an industry CEO would be 0/100 for his company. It seems industry is willing to negotiate but when one side doesn't want to move from its position of 100% than there will be no deal. See the current situation in NL.
Why Edgar are you supporting those cities rights to be paid more and to have the right to use our ore and to use their own resources as well. Nothing ever gets sent to Newfoundland and Labrador for secondary processing. Why?
I did not say I supported anything in the above statement; you are putting words in my mouth that aren't mine. I don't know exactly why nothing ever gets sent to NL for secondary processing. Never ever thought about it and probably never will. Don't know why.
Why Edgar can't we have the same latitude with our Oil that we brought into Canada that Alberta has with its Oil? Why Edgar does Exxon have the right to keep an Oil field in a fallow state for years, no matter what this province says, and Ottawa won't assist us in having the fallow field legislation lifted.
Alberta's oil is on land and thus falls under provincial jurisdiction. The oil off NL is under the land under the sea which falls under the Federal Govt. jurisdiction. This was known when NL joined into confederation. Exxon has the right to keep an oil field in stagnation because there isn't any law requiring it to develop it and thus it has decided to sit on it. I don't like it either but there isn't much we can do about except ...lobby the federal parties to join NL in bringing in Fallow Field Legislation. Write your MP, minister of Natural Resources, the PM; write letters to the editor of all the major papers across the country especially in Quebec and Ontario. We know how much they hate the CPC and George Big Oil Bush. When I sent in my $100 donation for my membership renewal in the CPC I also attached a letter requesting that they consider supporting Danny Williams' fallow field motion. Money talks and so does lobbying, especially from ordinary Canadians like me.
Why Edgar did Ottawa use our hugh fish resource to the point where it is now almost fished to extinction, and Ottawa still allows those rogue nations to fish the last fish off the Grand Banks of Newfoundland?
I don't remember seeing any members of the fishery unions asking the Feds to stop building the plants in every nook and cranny across the province. They were probably only doing what the elected officials from the provinces recommended to them at the time. I remember fisherman from NL during the winter fishery on the SW coast catching their weekly quota of cod, which were spawning, in 3 days than going out and making a haul to unload over in Canso NS for cash and returning the next day to party before heading out on Monday to do it all over again. This lasted 4-6 weeks and there were upwards of 70-80 vessels fishing. How much fish was destroyed by the ignorance and greed of NL's? Did you ever hear of a NL fisherman accept any blame? Didn't the feds have a tags program in place for 5 years that paid out approximately 8 billion in benefits to displaced workers? I don't know why Ottawa allows those rogue nations to rape the waters outside of the 200 mile limit. NL-expat has some interesting articles and investigative knowledge on the subject. Ask him.
Why Edgar do you not speak up about those inequities?
I have spoken up about those inequities. I have signed the petition banning bottom trawler and would only support an inland hook and line fishery. No nets or traps whatsoever. What does this have to do with Danny Williams’s driving away investment in NL, especially lower Churchill and Hebron?
Why Edgar did Ottawa not stand up to Quebec when we asked it to grant us a corridor to conduct the Upper Churchill Energy back 40 years ago and now Quebec has reaped the billions with one-fifth of a cent Hydroelectric energy?
Quebec separation threats I would presume, that and the 90 or so seats to 7. No, our parliamentary system isn't fair. You still want to live in the past. Wanting to get back what was lost in the last deal on the new deal.
Which province wouldn't be angry Edgar, if it had gotten the raw deal that Newfoundland and Labrador has gotten.
Any province I would suspect. But NL signed a bad deal, in hindsight, mostly because of the egos of the elected officials at the time, much of what we have the beginnings of again now. "It feels like deja-vu all over again." (Yogi Berra).
Edgar your mad as a hatter because we do not want to give up anymore of our resources. Good gracious what type of ideologies do you possess? And did I hear you say you were once a resident of this province, or am I mistaken? All the qustions I asked you, I would like you to answer to justify your reasonings to why we should give away anymore resources. All these injustices are crippling to this province. Can't you see that?
I am not mad and I haven't asked for NL to give up its resources. You make it sound like nothing is being offered when in fact that isn't true. You are stretching the truth. There have been good offers made on both the lower Churchill and Ben Nevis for all sides. Not one-sided for either side but fair I would suspect. NL had momentum and goodwill on its side and good PR up until Danny went all piss and vinegar. Energy in motion tends to stay in motion until it meets an unmovable force, one of Newton’s laws which also apply to every day economics and psychological well being, hope. I was a resident but like most was forced to leave due to bad leadership and lack of foresight on the part of our elected officials and the masses of asses who elected them and their harebrained schemes. Where did I ask you to give away your resources? Once again this is a falsehood on your part. Your own ideologies and victimization of self is crippling to NL society.
I cannot believe you are so against us getting ahead. Are you some sort of business consultant who is making a wonderful living of berating and belitting in this province at the same time are you could be lobbying away our resources? You won't be the only one, if you answer yes. There have been many others who have made an excellent living doing that. I can remember a former Premier and a few others who have done so. It is disheartening to me when I see people writing the unkind things that they do, just because we are trying to get a better deal out of our resources and position ourselves a little better in Canada.
You like the rest of Canadians are sickening. You appear to want the people of this province to roll over and die. What kind of mentality do you have. A very covetous one as far as I can see.
I don't believe I am against us getting ahead. Why else am I coming here to discuss this with you? Quite the opposite I think. Not a business consultant. Free market capitalist, born again Christian. You had a better deal than the original one with regards to Churchill falls but you are trying to make up for the last bad deal on this one as well. Not a reasonable or rational expectation. All Canadians are sickening now are they? Marginalize the whole lot based on your misunderstanding comments of one. Should the rest of Canada make their opinion of NL's based on the convictions that you protest? Who wants who to roll over and die?
A free market capitalist mentality sprinkled in with ample kindness and generosity to my fellow man. Jesus said where there is a need fill it. I am very charitable. I want to spend half my life making a wealthy, honest sum so I can spend the other half giving it away. I am very ambitious towards my goal. Thou shall not covet.... enough said there.
By the way Edgar your ideology is what is keeping this province down, not mine and my ilk. I am trying to get a better deal for our people which will be paid for out of our own resources.
My ideology has never been put into practice in NL, only yours, nationalism/socialism/communism. I apologize for using the word ilk, bad choice on my part. You had a better deal and turned it down, now you are griping because the big international companies took their ball to go play somewhere else. If you had built it with power claw back clauses they would come eventually. Now Danny is bargaining from a position of weakness when he could have had great a little more leverage and strength.
On the other question you posed about the income trust conversions I'll say this much. It had to happen sooner or later. Yes, there will be those who will lose money in the short term but the market will recover once all the hoopla dies down plus they gave them a 5 year period to adjust. Those seniors who lost money get an additional 1000$ personal exception plus income splitting of all their pensionable earnings. I have stocks and mutuals and I'm sure I'll lose some but there is going to be some opportunity to make some money after all the fear comes out of the broth. I guess you can say there is no uncertainty now. If things would have kept going it would have been a pay later scheme. Someone has to pay eventually. We have to keep all our social programs going in this neo-socialist Trudeaupian society of ours.
Goodnight Tiffany and God bless
Thanks Edgar for your reply.
ReplyDeleteYou said Edgar "On the other question you posed about the income trust conversions I'll say this much. It had to happen sooner or later. Yes, there will be those who will lose money in the short term but the market will recover once all the hoopla dies down plus they gave them a 5 year period to adjust. Those seniors who lost money get an additional 1000$ personal exception plus income splitting of all their pensionable earnings. I have stocks and mutuals and I'm sure I'll lose some but there is going to be some opportunity to make some money after all the fear comes out of the broth. I guess you can say there is no uncertainty now. If things would have kept going it would have been a pay later scheme. Someone has to pay eventually. We have to keep all our social programs going in this neo-socialist Trudeaupian society of ours".
Edgar what you said in the paragraph above about the Income Trust, parallels with my felling on what Premier Danny Williams has to do with our resources. Someone has to stop the bleeding of Newfoundland and Labrador's resources, we cannot forever let certain people and corportions prostitute on the avails of those resources. It should be a 50/50 poposition, the Corporationa should get half and the Province should get half. And, of course, everything will be done in a contractual way, with everyone concerned making something out of it, but nobody will be make a killing. Edgar You say that you are a good Christian, I believe that is what I deduced out of your writing above , I am as well. But what I am foremost is that I am a Humanitarian. I want fairness. I want everyone to survive comfortably. And that that is what Jesus would have wanted. I want our people to be able to make a living and I want those Corporations to have a strong backbone. Corporations, like provinces, need strong backbones to survive. Prime Minister Harper said that the Corporations were weakening Canada's backbone by taking on the Income Trust or Business Trust Structure. Canada was collecting very little taxes because of the Tax Breaks this structure was set up under, and Canada would get less taxes in the future and weaker economically, as more of the Canadian Corporations migrated to that structure. And eventually it would bankrup Canada. Harper was thinking it would devastate Canada completely; and it had to be changed. Ottawa saw the Telecom Industry (a very large industry) was migrating into that mode and it feared that in the not too distant future so would Banks and every other business in Canada. Something had to be done. It took the route least desired in any of the Provinces and in Canada, by killing the Income Trust Sector. But like you also said something had to be done to avert disaster; and that is no different than the view that has to be taken in Newfoundland and Labrador on our resources. We have to survive as well, that is no different than what Ottawa is saying it has to do. I don't like repetition, but I am purposely doing so in the hope that you will get the message I am sending in this post. But more likely it could be confusing you, I hope not.
I see no difference in what Premier Williams is saying and trying to do. When we allow our resources to be given away, and we get nothing out of it, then we have a Newfoundland and Labrador without a vertebrae, that will not exist into the future. Giving away our NL resources is counter-productive to what we want and it is no different than Canada allowing Corporations to morph into Income Trusts with all the distributions/payouts going to the unit holders and very little going to the country of Canada and then Canada not existing.
When we give away our resources to Corporations like Exxon, they collect everything with nothing for Newfoundland and Labrador. Same Situation As Canada Sees Itself Facing With Income Trusts. Canada will just wither away and die. Everything needs food or fuel to survive. It is the same scenario for Newfoundland and Labrador. If we keep no part of our resources to provide economies here, well then there will be no Newfoundland and Labrador, the land mass, of course, will exist but it will be void of its people. We need resources to create jobs to keep people here. The same ARGUMENT, as Canada is using, Canada needs taxes from Corporations to keep Canada alive to keep up its social programs and to keep the many high paying federal servants working.
I wish you a Good Day Edgar and May God Bless You Always. As Well, I wish the same for all the World's People. It is time that everyone experienced Peace, Love and Security. But it won't happen with the greed of today's Governments and Corporations. Things must change for humanity's sake.
Maybe we need more moves by Government Leaders, like those taken by Prime Minsister Stephen Harper.
Thanks