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Tuesday, October 31, 2006

Will the Last Person Out Please Turn Off the LIghts?

How can anyone, especially Premier Danny Williams, watch 5,000 to 10,000 people pack themselves into the Capital hotel for a job fair held by out of province employers and not consider using every tool at their disposal to promote industrial development and keep people here? Oil may be spewing from the wells off our shores but our best and brightest are also spewing out of communities across the land and heading directly for the nearest airport.

“It’s heartbreaking”, said one job seeker at the fair. “I’ve lived here all my life but there’s just no work. If I want to feed my family I have to leave them behind.”
When you consider that according to financial analysts Newfoundland and Labrador is a hair’s breadth from being considered a so called “Have” province, the irony of the situation really hits home. There is an abundance of resources in the province, oil, minerals, timber and hydro power and so on, but none of these has translated into the kind of local jobs the province needs. The unemployment rate remains in the double digits, the highest in the nation, and people are leaving by the plane load as lights go out all along the coast.

The truth is that the problem rests squarely on the shoulders of every Newfoundlander and Labradorian and nobody else’s. Yes, the federal government has thrown up roadblocks to our futures. Everything from mismanagement of the fisheries to denying the province the same rights to manage it’s oil and gas as places like Alberta, but in the end it is the people of the province who have elected provincial government after provincial government, the members of which, have no vision beyond the very next election and another four year term.

When oil was discovered offshore nobody stood up to make sure that refineries and petrochemical industries were lured here. While we all know power from the Upper Churchill was whisked away through a seriously flawed deal with Quebec we still have the right to recall enough of that power annually to support at least one industrial player who could provide a few hundred badly needed jobs. Instead our government simply sells that power back to Quebec. The Lower Churchill project is now being considered for development yet the only option the Premier seems to recognize is selling the power outside the province rather than using it to attract industry here.

The list of wasted opportunities goes on and on but it’s by no means infinite. Sooner rather than later the last chance, the last resource find that can be used to help build the economy, will have been given away. We all know what will happen then. No longer will a couple of flights a day be enough to handle the mass exodus of people from this place. When that day comes the province will look a lot like a third world nation in the hours leading up to some monstrous natural disaster. Every artery, every flight and every ferry out of this place will be filled to overflowing and the entire province will become little more than a footnote to history.

Would the last person out please turn off the lights?

77 comments:

Anonymous said...

I never thought I'd say this patriot but you've finally written a very poignant piece.
Sad to see your province being emptied out like that.

Tell yuour Premier to stop driving out business and get projects like Hebron back on the table.

Cindy said...

I read people like Ed Hollett in here spouting off about not being able to draw industry here. Well Mr. Hollett I'd like to know who you work for becuase maybe you are willing to give my husband a job. If your not he'll be leaving for Alberta on Monday and we won't see him for months.

I guess as long as you have work that's fine right?

Patriot said...

Hi anon, Thanks for the compliment on the piece (a back handed one anyway) but no, I won't ask the premier to get Hebron back. Why should I do that unless they are willing to share the wealth. If I did I'd just be supporting one more giveaway and helping the cycle of thousands of people leaving the province.

Anonymous said...

Unskilled labor, that's what Alberta mostly wants.

Don't worry, they'll be back when the construction phase is over.

Oil companies, once established generate a lot of money, they don't generate a lot of jobs.
The jobs that they do generate are highly trained professionals.
Once the construction phase is over in Alberta (you are lucky it will last about 10 years), then all the unskilled and trained laborers will be back,
WHy?
Because they won't be needed anymore.

And in 20 years Newfoundland will really have a problem.

Start thinking about the future. NL. Your people are the least educated in North America.
Focus on the Future.

Patriot said...

I love how idiots like the previous anon just jump to conclusions about this province.

For your information the job searh at the local hotel was specifically for skilled tradesmen, engineers and the like. They weren't even interested in unskilled laborers and the fact is that they expected at least 1000 of those who showed up would be employed within the next couple of weeks.

It's typical of people like this anon to just assume there are no educated people in the province and if our numbers are high when it comes to being the least educated perhaps a part of that reason is becuase every time someone does gain a skill or a degree they are forced to leave.

Get your head out of your ass anon

Anonymous said...

Nice try PATRIOT.

READ

I wrote "Unskilled labor, that's what Alberta MOSTLY wants"


There is no doubt that most of the people in Nl who have any skill have already left the province a long time ago.

So, there, FOCUS ON THE FUTURE.
Once the oil companies are established they will no longer need laborers or unskilled people.

Once established, they generate a lot of money not a lot of jobs.

MrChills said...

The mere thought of finding employment drew up to 9000 people?!? If this doesn’t debunk the mainland centric view of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians being lazy, I guess nothing will.

This is so sad and pathetic that I do not know how to even comment, people obviously want to work it’s a shame that it has to be in another area of the country. So many of these people probably found a job yesterday and will end up leaving thinking it is only temporary and that they will move back once they “make it”. However, most people that leave do not come back, that’s the sad reality of it all.

I guess there is no real answer on how to stop this. It’s getting to the point that people think that the only way to get ahead it to move west, even though when you factor in cost of living and quality of life at the end of the day you are worse off.

MrChills said...

Once established, they generate a lot of money not a lot of jobs.

The majority of oil that is being extracted in the Fort McMurray area comes from tar sands. This is an extremely labour intensive process and requires trucks, tractors and other machines that are run by people. Yes, the number of jobs will drop, but not to the extent that you might think.

Anonymous said...

Patriot, you tore a strip off the hide of a poster who suggested N&Lers become more educated. Did you stop to consider that maybe that poster was on to something? Highly educated people tend to be rather more entreprenurial. Entrepreneurs are essential to revitalize your economy. Non-renewable resources will only take your province so far.

Danny fiddles while Rome burns, and with Williams riding so high in popularity, very likely to form a government again next time at the polls, why should he break a sweat and actually do something to try and reverse the human resource drain for the province!

Anonymous said...

As the old saying goes, "she's gone bye' she's gone"!

The province will be nothing more than a seniors complex the way it's panning out, and even those are going to diminish as they die off!

Does anyone else sense a chill in the air?

Ed Hollett said...

An opportunity for an very good deal existed on Hebron.

An excellent proposal to develop the Lower Churchill existed.

Both were tossed aside, in the one case in favour of nothing, and in the other in favour of an approach that likely won't work.

The fishery remains a mess due to endless rounds of talks because of government indecision.

Is anyone surprised that people are leaving the province?

And cindy, for the record, I never said it was difficult or impossible to attract industry to the province. I said it is difficult in the current environment. And also, for the record, I may well soon be joining your husband.

MrChills said...

Patriot, you tore a strip off the hide of a poster who suggested N&Lers become more educated. Did you stop to consider that maybe that poster was on to something?

The point that he made was very valid, for the most part, the people who do receive post-secondary education have to leave the Province. My parents both received University Degrees and were lucky enough to find decent employment within Newfoundland; however both myself and my two sisters left the Province within twelve months of graduating to find meaningful employment in our field of study.

Since the cod moratorium we have lost about 75,000 people from our Province, I have no idea how many of these people have received post-secondary education, but for sake of example, let’s say it was 1/3.

If those 25,000 educated people stayed in the Province, it would boost our post-secondary numbers to be high as or even higher than the national average. Also, the percentage of people in Newfoundland & Labrador with trades or technical certificates is almost twice the national average.

Anonymous said...

Well then Mr Chills, I guess all is lost in that case. All that is left for the province of N&L now is to for the provincial government to arrange for an orderly abandonment of all the people living on the island, arrange to sell off all the assets and to cut off all transportation links, leaving the province to the wild life.

Stick a fork in it, its done!

And by the way, what a legacy for Danny Williams!

Anonymous said...

Williams wants Newfoundland & Labrador to emmulate Ireland, but I believe he is patterning it after the Ireland of the potatoe famine era?

Danny "the one trick pony" Williams!

Anonymous said...

Danny Williams is going to have to wear this fiasco.

Williams nixed the Hebron Project in an attempt to try and change the rules which were in place. Naturally the oil companies voted with their feet.

The good premier should have let the Hebron project commence. The province would likely be gearing up for another GBS in the very near future, hence creating work for the trades, engineers etc. If Williams wanted to work toward changing the rules for any future petroleum discoveries, well that would be the reasonable approach. Instead Williams dug his heels in and then proceeded to berate the oil companies for not bowing to his wishes.

If that wasn't bad enough, Williams took a hissy fit when his chosen nominee, Wells, wasn't given the nod for the big job. Here is a guy that can't run a bingo game without causing a rukus. I guess Danny liked his style, go figure.

Anonymous said...

Danny Williams has been a trainwreck for the province. He is a one man show, nothing happens in government unless Williams gives it his approval. His cabinet follow orders or they find themselves in deep caca.

Since Williams has been in power, rural areas have been gutted. Williams has single handedly shown the world that the province is not friendly to business.

The political future for the province is a trainwreck! It looks as if Williams is going to have another term to work his
special magic simply because the liberals have commited hari kari leaving people with little or no choice.

To say that the future of the province is jeopardy is an understatement!

Tiffany said...

What do you think of the move the Federal Government Finance Minister Flaherty made this morning on behalf of the Federal Government by doing away with Income Trusts? People nearing retirement today and have their money invested in Trusts for income must be scared to death, since in some cases they are down 30 per cent in some of their unit holdings. Some Posters to this blog who bolter up the Feds as Angels forget that the Federal Government makes moves sometimes that hurt a of people as well. They have done so since the inception of Government and they will keep on doing so. So maybe the Ottawa/Canadian Federal Government is not much better than the Stans of Central Asia or Russia. There is uncetainty and risk everywhere in this World.

mt.pearligan said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Why does one regions gain have to be another person’s failure? As Canadian citizens all 9,984,670 square kilometers are accessible to its people. A regions gain serves us all because it’s all ours in the end. Yet there are very selfish people present who want to usurp such fortune from us for the sake of there own selfish tribalism. Our Cosmopolitanism serves us well and I think there’s a deficit of it from those who beat the tribal drums.

I say this to a man who takes advantage of the capitol city’s amenities yet lives in a leafy enclave outside its borders. I think you have issues far more reaching than federalism.

mt.pearligan said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
mt.pearligan said...

Are you talking about WJM?

Also, do you really think it's normal for entire regions like Atlantic Canada or social groups (french-canadians historically, First Nations then and now, rural folks everywhere) to be consistently doing worse than people in concentrated regions etc or those of certain socio-economic classes? Please don't anyone spout some sort of economic theory or R.O.B. nonsense to me either - people's lives shouldn't be dismissed as "data" in the grander scheme of someone's stock portfolio - or federal government auto-back-slapping. The overall numbers do not do justice to the circumstances of individuals and it's a bit of an insult to tell someone from NL "Hey! Be Thankful that you can go to Alberta and be a landscaper or go to Toronto and work in a factory! Don't mind your own resources and the potential industry and jobs being shipped out of the province! You're not entitled to enjoy the fruits of such things at home! You should go begging for your own wealth in places thousands of km's away!"

mt.pearligan said...

About education - who said NL'ers are the most uneducated people in North America - where did this information come from? I've been under the impression that NL'ers have the highest rate of university graduates in Canada. Makes sense doesn't it when we have almost the lowest tuition in the country and due to the lack of jobs there's not much more to do than go to school. It's one of the few options people have to stay in NL - they leave afterwards of course. Perhaps the rate looks to be low if people stop being NL'ers the minute they climb onto that wonderful Fort McMurray Express!

I remember moving to Ontario when I was 17 and being amazed at what a bunch of incredibly ignorant rednecks these employed people were - "when did you immigrate to Canada?" I was asked, in all seriousness, on more than one occasion. Factories, farming, oil patch jobs, logging, farming - these aren't jobs that require a lot of education generally speaking and they sustain much of the Canadian economy. It's true that education often equals employment but Americans are much less educated than Europeans in general (at least that is the reputation) yet they don't have unemployment rates in the early teens like much of Europe. Education isn't the only determining factor of a good economy and it's foolish to say so.

One last point for all of the geniuses slamming Danny Williams. I'm no huge supporter of Danny but blaming him for the state of affairs in the province is a little crazy. Were things much better before Danny came in? When was NL not poor, isolated, with a people who were inclined to go abroad to seek work? The only difference now is that there isn't a fishery (why is that?) to sustain a base population (the same way farming does in agricultural regions) and people choose lifestyle over having children. Before we could handle the bloodletting but now it's become acute.

Action Now said...

Blame the man who has tried to fix things for the effects of decades of short sighted policies, most of which were for someones short term political gain.

For years we have give away what we have for a few jobs. Danny trys to get us some long term gain out of herbron and he is a SOB. If hebron was built in NL there would have been what, perhaps two years of construction and then what... NOTHING!!! Resources are no good if you give them away for nothing.

The attude of business is you come to NL make your money and give NL nothing. This is what Danny is tring to change. It is also why he is so high in the polls.




Where are the people who should have been out with the job seekers tring to organize them . 9000 people who demand that something be done are a force to not be irnorged. The major revolutions of history have been started by less people. All this talk is changing nothing. Doing nothing is changing nothing. Chang will not come until we the people demand it and are willing to do what is necessary to bring it about.

Anonymous said...

Hebron would have continued for YEARS!! At least 20 years!!! Not to mention secondary industry.You people beleive everything Danny says!
Use your own brains!!

mt.pearligan said...

Hebron WILL continue for years. Anyone who's shortsightedness doesn't qualify them as legally blind and who isn't an idiot understands that WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF OIL AT THE SAME TIME DEMAND IS INCREASING AND OIL COMPANIES ARE GOING TO BE UNDER INCREASING PRESSURE TO FIND OIL DEVELOP IT WHERE THEY CAN - at HIGHER PRICES. Hebron will be back on the table within a couple of years guaranteed. Long-term vision and patience will be rewarded - not reckless spontaneity and desperate posturing. What - the oil companies walked away from the table last year - this year? Chill out - the oil companies haven't forgotten about Hebron - they're simply brooding over it and waiting for NL to come begging. Cheers to Danny (in this case at least) for having a couple of testicles and not giving in to the pathetic cries and warnings of fools.

Don't believe me? Do some research on oil supplies and oil demand for yourself. You can also take a look at energy alternatives - decades away and not one technology alone will replace oil.

Anonymous said...

*sigh* You people just don't get it.

Your oil reserves are PEANUTS compared to most other finds in the world. Sure, one day eventually someone will want "your" oil (which is really Canada's anyway). Question is: who will be left in Newfoundland to benefit??

mt.pearligan said...

I never said anything about our oil reserves being huge or the largest in the world. That's sort of irrelevant - how much of a commodity one has to sell does not necessarily correlate to it's desirability. Most oil on the Grand Banks is light sweet crude (Hebron is a heavier type but still relatively easy to process) and NL's oil accounts for almost half of Canada's production of this popular and easily processed type of oil. Furthermore, Genius, the oil off of NL's coast may not be the equivalent of Ghawar in terms of quantity but like everybody's favourite politician Danny himself says, North American reserves are highly important - oil reserves in the Caspian, for instance, come with higher security and political risks for the US.

As for your question about who is going to be left in the province to benefit the answer is probably most of the people that are there today. Hebron will come online within the next 2-3 years for sure - this isn't the 1980's and oil isn't selling for $10 a barrel - oil companies are thirsty. You shouldn't bother asking stupid questions.

As for the ownership of the oil you're right- it is technically Canada's oil - myself and others want to change that. If you don't like it perhaps you should be expending your energies to deny us our democratic rights and priveleges.

I have questions for you and I'll drop the sarcasm in return for a serious answer: Why do you bother to frequent this forum? Seriously, you and others, such as WJM and Ed Hollett, seem to not want to have respectful and contructive dialogue with other people on this site. NL is a pretty messed up place socially, economically and politically and I can't understand why you need to attack those that are concerned for and seeking some sort of answers for the place. I don't get it - do you have better ideas? Do you have a specific agenda? Why do you only have negative input - why the arbitrary contrariness (WJM this one is for you in particular)? More importantly why do you care at all? You don't like NL or its people - why bother talking to them or about them?

Tiffany said...

Don't be too quick to criticize Anon and call Newfoundland and Labrador's Oil Peanuts to Alberta's. There are vast ocean waters uncharted on the Eastern side of Newfoundland and Labrador, please do not forget we brought those waters into Canada, or otherwise Canada would not have had any right to them at all. In other words they wouldn't be there for Ottawa's taking.(Ottawa would never steal oil from Alberta, or anything for that matter.) And had we remained independent from Canada , Ottawa would not have dared to have jumped over Newfoundland and Labrador's space and stolen that oil resource either, or I hope it wouldn't have. Nobody knows the amount of oil, gas and whatever else nature has created in that space, it is virtually uncharted. So please do not stick your neck out and make predictions like that. Don't forget we are producing 540 thousand barrels per day out of 3 oil fields, or approximately 200 million barrel per year; and we produce most of the sweet crude in Canada.

Anonymous said...

Where are you getting your information??? Hebron's oil is INCREDIBLY heavy and while not terribly difficult to process it's very expensive and hard to get to it! Why bother when there are so many "easier" projects on the go.
You people aren't sitting on as much as a gold mine as you think.

mt.pearligan said...

Hey Anon,

I'd be surprised if Hebron was more expensive to develop per barrel than Alberta's tar sands. The difference, of course, between Alberta's tar sands and Hebron is that the former is under the sole jurisdiction of Alberta and the latter is under the jurisdiction of the Federal Government and NL combined. It's hard to think or do anything when you have two heads that disagree with each other and have completely different aims and interests. Hebron could already have been online if the Federal Government had been willing to assist or back NL in fighting for a better share. Nope - that almighty god of Harper's, the "MARKET" comes first - definitely before a f'ing pack of Newfs.

Tiffany said...

Please Go check the statistics yourself Anon - Newfoundland and Labrador's off shore Oil fields now provides approximately half the sweet crude produced in Canada. I didn't say Hebron.

EDGAR said...

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110006228

From world Oil.com
East Coast. On Canada's East Coast, 2006 has been a busy year. Newfoundland's oil production now represents about one-third of Canada's total light oil output, according to the provincial petroleum board. Of this, Hibernia field contributes the lion's share, averaging just under 200,000 bopd, with Terra Nova field contributing almost 100,000 bopd. However, a mechanical failure shut down Terra Nova production in May. Field operator Petro-Canada now believes that it will not resume production until the fall of 2006.

At White Rose, production averaged just over 49,000 bopd during the last two months of 2005, but it recently topped 110,000 bopd. The project is only authorized to produce 100,000 bopd, but operator Husky Energy plans to apply for an increase. By the end of the year, productive capacity could be 125,000 bopd. The company also said that bringing the field's gas production onstream, from estimated reserves of 2.3 Tcf, will take at least 10 years.

Meanwhile, amid news that Hibernia's productive life could increase by up to eight years, the field is center stage in a dispute between the provincial government and project partners. Officials contend that the amendment to the original application is a new discovery, but project partners maintain that the expanded reserves are covered under the original development plan and royalty agreement. The original deal contains a more favorable royalty regime than the current system that applies to any new project. Hibernia is operated by Exxon Mobil. Partners include Petro-Canada, Chevron Canada Resources, the government of Canada, Murphy Oil and Norsk Hydro.

Provincial officials were also embroiled in another dispute earlier this year, over a lack of progress in developing the Hebron/ Ben Nevis offshore heavy oil project. The province and project partners Chevron, Exxon Mobil, Petro-Canada and Norsk Hydro were unable to resolve a provincial demand for an equity stake, plus investment breaks sought by the partners. The field was discovered in 1981 and holds an estimated 600 million bbl of oil. (600 million x 50$ per BO = $30 Billion)

The above is a conservative estimate, 731 million BOE was last I saw, 731 X 50= $36.55 billion

Other goody, really good article

http://offalnews.blogspot.com/2006/07/caught-in-middle-complete.html

Another view http://www.aims.ca/library/RulesForOil.pdf

One more, have to put the kids to bed

http://www.capp.ca/raw.asp?x=1&dt=NTV&e=PDF&dn=98835

From your friendly neighbourhood "free market capitalist"

Tiffany said...

Edgar

I am endeavouring to find the article that stated that Newfoundland and Labrador's oil fields would be producing 540,000 barrels per day after its last oil well would be coming on stream in 2006. I read it about a year ago.

I do know that Terra Nova had a lot of down time this year because of mechanical problems and that knocked out 5 months of Terra Nova's poduction out of that number.

When, and if, I find the article I will put it on this site.

If there is somebody out there who reads this blog who has that article in his/her possession, I would appreciate it if that somebody would add it to this site.

Anonymous said...

Offshore Newfoundland and Labrador•131 exploration wells drilled to date, yielding 23 significant discoveries•Major Discoveries:􀂃Hibernia –220,000 b/d􀂃Terra Nova–180,000 b/d􀂃White Rose–100,000 b/d 􀂃Hebron/Ben Nevis•No exploration wells were drilledin 2004. One in 2005. One or two in 2006.•Three seismic programs conducted in2004 and five in 2005. Two to four for 2006.•Exploratory drilling expected:􀂃20074 -6wells􀂃2008 ?•Laurentianand Orphan basins remain prospective but not yet drilledHenry Goodridge Drill Rig

Anonymous said...

The address to the full document above is www.capp.ca/raw.asp?x=1&dt=NTV&e=PDF&dn=97331

Anonymous said...

The address above is a PDF FILE: I couldn't bring it up with www.capp.ca/raw.asp?x=1&dt=NTV&e=PDF&dn=97331> But, if you type into your browser "Offshore Newfoundland and Labrador•131 exploration wells drilled to date" there should be no trouble in bring this PDF File up.

Anonymous said...

Mt. Pearligan I would say you are right when you speak of the cost to develop Alberta's oil sands.

The article below is archived on the internet along with many other articles on how difficult, expensive, pollutant and exacting on other precious resources the oil sands will be. Precious water will be needed in great amounts and so will natural gas.

TITLE OF ARTICE ON THE INTERNET IS; Curing oil sands fever
Despite wide-eyed predictions, serious constraints remain in developing Alberta's heavy oil.
By Steve Hargreaves, CNNMoney.com staff writer
October 7 2006: 12:38 AM EDT

xthou said...

The leading candidate for the Alberta Torys (next premier of Alberta), Jim Dinning, was on the radio today talking about (seriously) going nuclear as a way to supply power for the oilsands projects. A company that I work for is injecting CO2 & steam down into the formation to assist in lifting the bitumen out of the mixture. You can hem and haw all you want but there is 100 billion on the books for capital projects right now that will be completed over the next 10 years. Refineries are being upgraded in Sarnia, Montana and Houston as well as a new one being built in Redwater, just northeast of Edmonton. These upgrades are done with the expectancy of hugh quantites of oil coming on from 2010 to 2015 from the Athabasca oilsands.. Current estimates have anywhere from 100 to 120 years of oil supply for North America with the 'current technology'.

All the naysayers and Al Gores of the world can say what they want but the facts speak for themselves, these projects are 'ongoing', not in the planning or economical feasibilty stage.

NL had momentum and goodwill about its opportunities and now that is currently lost. I am not saying that Hebron will never be done, just that there was opportunity and hope, now there are lineups for job fairs for out of province work. When you tell industry that the oil can stay in the ground forever, they are assuming you mean it.

Edgar said...

Xthou was the encryption,

Edgar

Anonymous said...

xthou - what is up with all the jealously displayed here towards NewfoundlandLabrador getting ahead.

I am happy that Alberta is doing so well, my only wish is that NewfoundlandLabrador will be able to get a piece of its economic pie as well and will be able to forge ahead with an economy similar to Alberta. An economy that will be able to keep its people home, where they belong. Nobody wants to leave home for work, especially when their province is so well endowed with all types of resources. It is unethical for big Corporations to demand the whole of the pie and not want us to have even 5 per cent equity in a resource.

I say Long Live Alberta with a Wonderful Vibrant Economy. I hope it has it forever, but I also want to have the same for NewfoundlandLabrador as long as we have all those wonderful natural resources here. Also what I am yearning for my province, is no different than what I am yearning for the whole world. The whole world needs Vibrant Economies, so Peace and Security can take hold and be established. Good World Economies are the basics for a more Peaceful and Secure World. Why would you XTHOU wish us anything different? I don't understand why, but maybe you can tell me why? But that type of mentality is why the World is in the state it is in. I have deciphered what you have written above and it appears to be heartless. I will go as far and say that it is unconciousable to write such a heartless post.

NewfoundlandersLabradorians don't think like that, where they wish others bad will. If they did they wouldn't have up and leave their homes in the thousands over the years to work diligently in the other provinces. And from what I have heard, they are darn good workers. Please Xthou do not wish us bad will. It is not humane. After writing this article, I am retiring to bed sick to my stomach and my heart is aching that you would wish us such ill-will.

NL-ExPatriate said...

Thanks for that link that's some indepth Tar Sands info. Oh the real link is.

http://www.pembina.org/pdf/publications/OilSands72.pdf

Something funky about copy and paste with that link. I cut and pasted worked.

Here is another good article about the tar sands albeit daming.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/30/AR2006053001429.html

What I don't get is why the feds refuse to give NL their 8.5% ownership stake when you consider how much money they have pumped into the tar sands through loans, grants, tax exemptions and direct investment with little or no strings attached. But NL is expected to give up half it's ownership and any investment by the feds unlike Wild rose country. Such disparities in policy it is sickening.

I guess we just have bad politicians? Mr Crosbie hails himself as a savior in his book for what he did with Hibernia. My goodness Albertas politicians must be gods for the investment they have gotten for the tar sands and continue to get to this day.

NL-ExPatriate said...

Oh to Anoynomous.

Hibernia oil is just one point above the specif gravity that would classify it as light crude.

It's in here somewhere. Some report by the University of Alberta.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060417.REXXON17/TPStory/Business
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1145310632487&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home
http://www.thetelegram.com/news.aspx?storyID=48661
http://www.truthonthemarket.com/2006/04/13/so-much-for-disclosure-of-executive-pay
http://en.chinabroadcast.cn/2600/2005-8-5/116@263847.htm
http://www-crewes.geo.ucalgary.ca/Conference-abstracts/2004/SEG/Royle_SEG_2004.pdf
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/16/business/exxon.php
http://www.aims.ca/inthemedia.asp?typeID=4&id=1339&fd=0&p=1
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/14415315.htm
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20060422185127259
http://www.ganderbeacon.ca/index.cfm?iid=1283&sid=9144
http://www.kristv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4812116
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/tm.site/news/TOP%20STORY/239423/
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Anonymous said...

To the Anon who went to bed with an "aching heart".......

Please spare us your dramatics.

Newfoundlanders are flocking to Alberta for one thing only: BIG MONEY.
Once they get it they fly home to spend it all in Newfoundland and who cares about what that is doing to Alberta's economy.
They keep their adresses in NL and usually their families too, so where are their taxes going?? Newfoundland!
Well an economy which is based on this system is not going to prosper very wellin the long run. Alberta's biggest problem is not getting workers out there it's getting them to be part of the community and help contribute to the roads, hospitals and school systems that they are using.
When you work in a place and use up all it's services then turn around and say "but I actually live over there so I will not pay taxes here" ...that's what is shameful.
Seems to me it's the Newfies who are sucking up other people's resources for themselves.

If Alberta's did the same thing in Newfoundland there'd be hell to pay.

Anonymous said...

Believe me my feelings are not dramatics, they are heartfelt. I do not have one dramatic bone in my body, if I did I would channel it into taking some role in some sort of theatrical. I have 2 children living in BC for the past 8 years and they get home once a year, not entirely on their own money, but with a little help from my family as well. I have several family members living in Alberta and Ontario. Out of all of them, living out of this province, I know only one who comes home every 10 weeks. I only hope and wish that I could have my children back that often or preferably to stay, it is a very lonely world without your children being around. But for my family that is not the type of work they do.

You said "If Alberta did the same thing in Newfoundland there'd be hell to pay". Alberta is doing this, only because it is in a crunch for workers, 50,000 right now and 1 million worker shortage in 10 years to be exact. If we had the good fortune of having that much employment with so few workers, we would be doing the same thing here. That is if we could get our resources working for NewfoundlandLabrador the way Alberta's resources are working for it. Yes, no doubt, that would be the scenario here in NL as well. When Alberta didn't have the jobs and people went West 20 years ago from Eastern Canada, Klein said "Go Back home Easteners", but now he is welcoming them with open arms, and throwing in bonusus to boot in the form of a trip home every 10 weeks. That, of course, is because of the booming economy in Alberta. Is it because Alberta has a better deal with Ottawa to develop those resources? I will let you be the judge.

Edgar said...

Anonymous about Xthou (Edgar)


There is no jealousy about NL, you are missing my point. You want a vibrant economy with all the jobs and infrastructure so who do you expect to pay for it? It is not the responsibility of governments to be in the business of picking winners and losers. The government is responsible for roads, health care, social services, transportation, taxation and the environment. Capitalist build businesses and the necessary infrastructure. Alberta use to have its own oil company, AEC, that it formed during the NEP as a way of getting around the federal guidelines, thay have since privatived AEC years ago and it was emalgamated with Pan Canadian 3-4 years ago to form ENCANA corp. which is the largest Canadian oil and gas company.

My point that I have been harping on for the past week is how the 'current' political and social environment in NL is not business/industry friendly. It is not me doing or saying those things, I am just stating the obvious.

You can talk about how the oilsands are not as good or are more non-environmentally friendly as Hibernia, Hebron, Hibernia, White Rose etc but the facts speak for themselves. The American, Chinese, Canadian and other foreign capital investors are flocking to Alberta to invest there because of the situation on the ground, risk vs. reward.

And please, save me the heartless crap and other victim bs that you are spouting. It is a manipulative ploy to silence those that don't agree with your nationalist/socialist stance. I want NL to prosper so I can return to be around my family and so my kids can experience the comfort of an extended family. It is not going to occur under the current circumstances and not much seems to have changed over the 10 years that I left. I am sick and tired of you nanny state socialists flogging your failed model for my province. There is so much govt. intrusion in your lives and you are asking for more. If you want to feel sick just look in the mirror, your feelings are about you and not about what I or anyone else thinks or does. Suck it up princess.

Edgar

Anonymous said...

Edgar you stated: Alberta use to have its own oil company, AEC, that it formed during the NEP as a way of getting around the federal guidelines."

Edgar if we, here in NewfoundlandLabrador, can be so lucky as to have the same priviledge to get our house in order and to get around the federal guidelines, well then is when will do a switcharoo like Alberta.

Edgar first a province has to to lay down the fundamentals, and get things going in the direction it wants them to go. Once we have the everything in place and we have control so that we know what we are doing and where we are going, then we can look at privatizing some things. But not until things have turned around in NewfoundlandLabradorand we know that we won't be giving away the shop until every last ounce of ore, every last quart of oil, every last fish and every last kilowatt of electricity is drained out of NewfoundlandLabrador to the private sector, with NOT one iota of equity for ourselves. WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL AND TO BE SURE THAT WE ARE DOING THINGS PROPERLY.

Edgar, IT APPEARS TO ME, that you are spouting off because you are looking after your own pocket book, you don't give a damn, or at least, that is how it appears to me about the masses of NewfoundlandersLabradorians who have to give up everything and move to places like Sudbury, Ontario and Thompson, Manitoba to work their own ore. As long as you make the money from our resources you are o.k. And if I were to take a guess I would say you are one of the lobbyists out there lobbying for some entity to get a resource or two for yourself or some Corporation that you are working for. I have no idea, of course, but that would be my guess. I have just as much of a right to lobby on behalf of NewfoundlandLabrador's resouces remaining here and used here for our benefit as you do.

Alberta didn't get the economy it is enjoying by just passing all of its resources over. You mentioned above how Alberta did it. It did it the way that I want it done here in NL. Once NL has it feet planted firmly on the ground with regards to having a booming economy, then and only then, should we privatize the way you said Alberta did. And, of course, you can be sure not only Alberta did it that way, the rest of the provinces also followed that method. Edgar, I do hope that you stop lobbying for our resources to be exploited somewhere else besides Newfoundland and Labrador.

Anonymous said...

Edgar you said a few posts back that you were a Christian. You like to make a lot of money and then give half of it away. A wonderful idea! But Edgar do you not think the ones you give it to wouldn't want to have such earnings, so they too would be able to be a give large amounts away as well? I am sure they would love to earn their own living and not have to take alms. They too would like to make a lot of money, enough so that they could give away some, get a tax income receipt and deduct it at the end of the year. We would all love to be givers if we could make that kind of money. Besides Newfoundlanders/Labradorians have the distinction, despite their low incomes, to be the greatest donors of money in Canada to cgharities.

I want to see everyone earning a good living off their resources and not having to take alms.

Anonymous said...

Newfoundland needs to get on it's feet??
You've had 500 years to figure it out!! St.John's is the oldest city in North American , yet one of the poorest run. You'd think your province would have had enough time to "Get it right".

Oh wait...I forgot........it's EVERYONE ELSE'S fault. Right.

Anonymous said...

We are just beginning to figure out how corrupt and non-transparent governments are. We also have now figured out how the Canadian Federal Government has everything structured. So give us a little more time and let us keep our resources in the ground and we will figure out how to operate them for our benefit. Please do not rush us into anything more outrageous than what we have been involved in. Thank You Very Much For Your Future Patience.

Edgar said...

What exactly do you want?
How is it suppose to pan out in your utopian NL?
What does it mean when you say we will not be giving our resources away?
What is our fair share?
Why do you believe that anyone who disagrees with your positions must be either a lobbyist or a greedy individual?
When will the self-victimization of NL'ers end?
Where is the capital going to come from to start all these 'nationalized' projects?
Has anyone seen the proposals brought forth for the Lower Churchill? If so can you describe them and if not why the secrecy around them?


You can bad mouth Canada all you want but I remember the stories and pictures of 50-60 years ago. I remember my father having to walk across the 'path', not the street, to the landwash to throw the slop pail into the ocean. I remember when there weren't paved roads, running water, modern schools and hospitals. I remember all those seniors from 1949 on who never contributed anything to Canada getting pension cheques, health care, and other social services. Where did all the money come from to build those roads, water plants and piping, schools, hospitals and other federal anemities? Where did the money come from to build the fish plants, airports, ferry terminals and the like? It is easy to look at the current situation and only count the last 10 years, conveniently forgetting the previous 47 years. How many billions have Ottawa poured into NL over the past 57 years? There's a good project for you Patriot, NL-expat or Avrill Baker. Where is the cost benefit analysis of those 57 years?

Edgar

Anonymous said...

Edgar you skirted the question again, are you a lobbyist or are you a greedy individual? Please do not send the question back to me anymore. I am defending Premier William's quest to have equity in our resources. And as a NewfoundlandLabradorian resident I want my government to have an equity in our resources. It is the only way we will ever get ahead. Just like the way you said Alberta created economies.


You asked me many question in your last paragraph. One being how many billions have Ottawa poured into NL over the past 57 years for the infrastructure you mentioned.

WELL Edgar if you haven't heard every NL owes a debt of $23,800. for those things. That is 10 times that of the debt of some of the other provinces. Plus Ottawa has gotten more than its fair share of our resources. The fish quotas alone have brought much wealth and foreign affairs clout to Ottawa for Ottawa's benefit, and the benefit of the other provinces of Canada. Why else do you think we each owe $23,800 in this province. It is funny people like you want to forget the per capita debt we owe. Well that is the reason we owe the debt. We owe it for the things you mentioned above.

Just one or two museums and a airport like Toronto's cost the Federal Government more in Ontario than every thing you have listed above in NewfoundlandLabrador. And still we owe many, many more times the debt per person than each person from Ontario owes.

Anonymous said...

How about the billions of dollars Ottawa has poured into Bombardier over the past 6 years to allow it to sit idle, while waiting for requisitions to build planes. I am wondering if those billions show up in the per capita debt of each person in Quebec. I doubt it very much.

Edgar said...

Bull,

the debt you are referring to is what was spent from your provincial treasury. I am not a lobbyist or a greedy individual. I am a free market capitalist. I started with nothing and worked my butt off in school and later as a labourer so that I could provide for my family and then be able to give back to those who "try to help themselves."

Alberta didn't build an equity position in the oil and gas sector until it was 35 years later and after federal incursion into provincial jurisdiction forced it to..

I am aware of the per capita debt you owe and that is why you need business and industry there to provide a greater tax base... why am I wasting my time trying to convince someone who will not or can't be convinced otherwise.

OK, you are right , its Ottawa's fault, its my fault, it's Quebec's fault, it's the big oil companies fault, Alberta's fault, forget it. Good luck and good night. This is a ridiculus waste of time.

Every now and then I get the misconception that maybe there is a willingness to hear a different perspective. I can be a passive reader for 6-8 months and then try communicating for 2-3 weeks. It is those 2-3 weeks that I learn the most from engaging with my fellow NL'ers. Good night and good luck to you.

Edgar

Anonymous said...

Yes it is that same period of 2-3 weeks that I have learned that what you are proposing for us as NewfoundlandersLabradorians with our resources is the SAME OLD, SAME OLD. Nothing will change with your proposals. But please do not get so frustrated Edgar. Just remember we are just trying to do things differetly, so that we, too, can enjoy the fruits of our resources with lots of industries here and lots of jobs, enough jobs that we can offer them to the rest of the world just like Good Old Alberta. Thanks Edgar for communicating and please do not take it too seriously.

Anonymous said...

Edgar you said "You can bad mouth Canada all you want but I remember the stories and pictures of 50-60 years ago. I remember my father having to walk across the 'path', not the street, to the landwash to throw the slop pail into the ocean. I remember when there weren't paved roads, running water, modern schools and hospitals".

"YES" Edgar that was 100 per cent true and to some extent is still true, since we have not arrived in Modernity with as good economics conditions as the rest of Canada. But if you talk to people from Nova Scotia, PEI, Quebec, New Brunswick, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia and the 2 Territories, who witnessed conditions in their own provinces 60 years ago, the conditions in some of their areas would have been much the same. But their conditions have changed for the better for all of them, while NewfoundlandLabrador's conditions have not changed to the same extent. There is still more poverty in NewfoundlandLabrador despite the fact this province has more natural resources than most of the other provinces. YOU SEE EDGAR THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE. NewfoundlandLabrador's resources have worked better for the rest of Canada than they have for NewfoundlandLabrador. Since the Second World War ended 60 years ago, the World has changed dramatically for the better with regards to economies.

Edgar it was a pleasure communicating with you over the past number of days. I liked every one of your posts. Grammatically they were superb and the information contained within was also wonderful. The statements you made gave me a springboard to highlight the deficiencies in NL compared to the rest of Canada and the World. And simply it is because of the way NL's resources were handled, and despite the economic conditions being not good here, some people still want to give away our resources, the way we did in the past, that has allowed us to have such poor economic conditions in a place with many resources and no jobs. How ironic? Again Edgar Thanks for your participaction. And the participaction you allowed with your wonderful posts is a resource in itself. It allows us to discuss the facts.

Anonymous said...

Edgar -- I believe that you are 100% correct in your views and it's very refreshing to hear from someone not so blinded by the Willimas govt. into thinking poor Newfoundland has to make a big stand. This place needs business and until Williams is gone, no one wants to invest here.

Anonymous said...

Anon

That is bull Anon. The Premier wants to have equity into our resources. That is what we haven't had in the past, equity. And you know darn well we haven't been able to get ahead economically by creating an economy that contained jobs, under the conditions of just giving away everything.

What is the matter with you people who suggest such a thing? Are you another business consultant, lobbyist or political groupie? I don't expect you to answer yes to any of those categories. But I do wish you stop advocating that we abandon our attempt to have equity in our resources, that will surely equate into an economy that will contain jobs, that is if the Premier can get everything down pat.

Anonymous said...

Do you even know what equity is??? If you did then you'd know that business doesn't want government as partners.

If Danny wants an abnormal amount of equity then he should quit politics and go back to running a business.

Anonymous said...

Explain to me please, if we do not take equity in our resources, how are we ever going to create economies with jobs to support our people?

We never have taken equity in our resources here in NewfoundlandLabrador in our history and we have not been able to keep this place going properly with people employed; thus we are forever losing our people to other parts of Canada and the World.

I would like your explanation please and maybe if you can come up with method that sounds or appears like it could be a solution, I might be able to support you.

I will await a recipe from you on how we are to create economies here with jobs without taking equity into our resources. Hopefully I will get that recipie very soon. Otherwise please stop contradicting me.

Anonymous said...

Oh yes, when you are compiling your data, would you please compare what you are proposing to how we have done it in the past, without taking equity in our resources. That is the only way that you will be able to distinguish for me the difference, in what you are proposing for NewfoundlandLabrador NOW without taking equity, and what we have done in the PAST with our resources without taking equity. I am very anxious for your reply. I hope I am conversing with Einstein. If you are unable to do this for me, you will have a hard time posting to this blog without being confronted with your same old, same old.

I have to say that I am saying well is one way is not cutting it, well then the other way has to cut it. It is a very simplied answer but until we try the other side, how will we ever know if it works or if it doesn't. All I know is that every other province which has taken equity in its resources, that province has become a 'have' province. And, then there are the blood sucker provinces which use other provinces resources to keep their 'have' status.

My reasoning for saying we must take equity NOW in our resources is because we haven't taken equity in the PAST and we have not furthered ourselves one iota. I am using the assumption if not taking equity in the PAST brought us a jobless economy, well then not taking equity in the FUTURE will bring us the same type of economy. Then there is only one other type of assumption, that is if we take equity in our resources in the FUTURE, we should have an economy that will provide jobs.

Anonymous said...

Again........do you know what equity is??

I am not saying that NL should never seek equity in projects.

However, this government cannot just waltz into a project and start demanding equity whenever they want!
The partners/shareholders, etc. have to be there right from the beginning of these big projects in order to have them developed.
What Williams has done is basically allowed the companies to come in and do all the grunt work and take all the risks with the promise of a "deal". These companies spent millions in preparation for Hebron.
Once Exxon and Chevron (for example) had everything in place, moved families down, created jobs for local people, then Williams changed the rules and demanded equity or no negogiations.

That is what as known in the rest of the world as a "bait and reel". It's not fair, it's not ethical, and it's not impressing anyone. "Big Oil" simply walked away and onto other projects.
Williams may think he is a big player but the rest of the world regards him as a whiny, demanding, pouty, one-man show who is destoying future development in NL.

Anonymous said...

Anon - Premier Williams' wanted equity in a new phase of the oil development in our offshore, NOT equity in an existing one. You can check that out for yourself, AND I hope you will.

You said Big Oil moved away because of Premier Williams' request. The truth is Big Oil did not move on to another project, Big Oil moved on because the U.S economy is coming into a downturn at this particular time and as a result Big Oil is in its slowdown period. If you follow the stock market you will see that to be true. Big Oil is a cyclical industry that is dictated by the World Economy. The inventory of oil in the system at the moment is astronimical. So the law of Supply and demand dictates. You see once the US economy slows down, so does the World's economy, and much less oil is required to service the system for the period involved. Once the slow down period is over Big Oil will be knocking on Premier Williams' door, because the 2 giants of the East, China and India have woken up and have had a taste of what the West has been enjoying for 50 or 60 years. Once the U.S. is over its slowdown period and rearing to go again, so will those two giants. At the moment the U.S. and Asia are co-dependant on each other. The U.S. buys Asia's manufactured goods and Asia services the U.S. debt from the monies paid for those goods. It is a global economy and everybody depends on everybody else.


Anon you speak of trust, of which I say there is none in this world either with Governments or Industries. But I would like to know your opinion on the move made by our Federal Government on the Income Trust Sector last week. In my opinion NOW that is unethical and not impressing anyone. Our Prime Minister told us that there would be nothing happening to the Income Trusts under his watch during this term of office. He turned around and did a 360 degree move.

Anon you can't trust anyone in this world and that is the truth of the matter. Isn't that a terrible reality? And big Oil is the less truthful of the pack. They are so unethical , they actually make this World a very freightening place to live in. I would appreciate your opinion on that statement also.

Anonymous said...

Williams also said no fish plants would close on his watch either. Politicians are all the same. All of them.

Anonymous said...

I Concur.

Anonymous said...

There was a post above that referred to how poor NewfoundlandLabrador was 50 to 60 years ago. The song COAL MINER'S DAUGHTER came to my mind and it was once sung by Dolly Parton. By the way I saw a documentary on Dolly a few years back. In the documentary Dolly gave her audience an accounting of how poor she was when growning up in the Great Smokey Mountains of Tennessee. I thought to myself we were no poorer in possessions than Dolly was, but Dolly's family had love and that is what most NL'ans had. Dolly sang in that song the following line: "In the summertime we didn't have shoes to wear
But in the wintertime we'd all get a brand new pair
From a mail order catalog money made by selling a hog Daddy always managed to get the money somewhere.

I don't think many of us NL'ans can remember when we didn't have a pair of shoes to wear or a meal of fish, seal from the sea; or vegetables grown in our family's garden. And most of us had a LOVING and CARING FAMILY. AND NOW we want a little something in the form of equity out of our resources. That equity, if put to work properly, will create different types of industry here to create meaningful jobs for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. I hope this government has the administrative ability to do all of the above and most of all the desire to turn our economy around with an economy that will boast jobs to keep our citizens here in this wonderful province.



LYRICS TO SONG COAL MINERS DAUGHTER

Well I was born the coal miner's daughter in a cabin on a hill in Butcher Holler
We were poor but we had love that's the one thing that daddy made sure of
He shovel coal to make a poor man's dollar
My daddy worked all night in the Vanleer coal mine all day long in the field hoein' corn
Mommie rocked the baby that night and read the Bible by the coal oil light
And everything would start all over come break of morn
Daddy loved and raised eight kids on a miner's pay
Mommie scrubbed our clothes on a washboard everyday
Why I've seen her fingers bleed to complain there was no need
She's smiled in mommie's understanding way
In the summertime we didn't have shoes to wear
But in the wintertime we'd all get a brand new pair
From a mail order catalog money made by selling a hog
Daddy always managed to get the money somewhere
Yeah I'm proud to be a coal miner's daughter
I remember well the well where I drew water
The work we done was hard at night we'd sleep cause we were tired
I never thought I'd ever leave the Butcher Holler
But a lots of things have changed since the way back then
And it's so good to be back home again
Not much left but the floor nothing lives there anymore
Just the mem'ries of a coal miner's daughter

Anonymous said...

That was Loretta Lynn.....not Dolly Parton.

And for Gawd's sake enough of the dramatics and theatrics....we were soooo poor but we was good people and we had love!

Anonymous said...

Loretta Lynn write that song.She was dirt poor and went by the name of Lorretta Webb and was the sister of Crystal Gayle (Brenda Webb)

How does that song relate in any way to Newfoundland??

Quit giving yourselves illusions of grandeur.

Anonymous said...

I said Dolly Parton sang the song, I didn't say she wrote it. Do you understand what you read? Apparently not.

It appears to me that maybe you people weren't only dirt poor like a good many people 60 years ago, but you were also taught to hate. Enough said.


Anon - Now that NewfoundlandersLabradorians are standing up and saying enough of this giving away of our resources. No more Giveaways of our resources , you Anons are starting to resort to childish taunting. It is no different than school yard bullying. You are a sickening bunch.

Anonymous said...

I AM a Newfoundlander you moron!

I just hate perpetuating the whole we are poor, we are oppressed, we need to stand up for ourselves against the big bad world mentality.

What we need to do is learn how to relate to others and let "outsiders" come in to help us change.

Anonymous said...

Anon - Why did you not disclose that you were a Newfoundlander in your posting you moron. How was I suppose to know when you were posting as if you were doing so from an external location?

I wasn't the one who said we were poor, it was another poster a few posts back who mentioned that his village was very poor 60 years ago. I think he made that reference to NL being poor, because he was trying to make a point by telling us to not seek equity, and to remember that we were once poor and that we should shut up and give the Oil Companies outright ownership, and NL not ask for equity. That is how I deciphered it. I responded to him that there were many parts of the World that were poor during that time. Then I made reference to the the famous singer Dolly Parton, who once accounted in her biography how poor her family was. I, too, hate to say we were poor, because as far as I was concerned the people in my community always had food, clothing and a roof over our head. I wouldn't call that poor. If you had read the postings and deciphered them properly, you would have understood what was being said and who said it. Please Anon take the time to read before you comment in the future.

Anon you said ""What we need to do is learn how to relate to others and let "outsiders" come in to help us change"".

I say please wake up to the realities of what is happening here in NL. We have always related to others in the past with complete kindness and we have given everything away. The only thing we have learned is that Outsiders just want to come here and take our resources outright and leave nothing. They don't want us to have equity. They don't want us to have anything. The only thing they want us to have is a JOBLESS ECONOMY. These are the points I have been putting forward here in this blog all along. Anon - If you can't decipher what is being said well then it is better for you to keep your moronic opinions out of it.

I might add that I detest the words 'moron' and 'mornic', but I am echoing you when you referred to me as a moron; and I am now applying the words to you, to see if you have enough emotions to see how these words are damaging. I am sorry for using them, but I had to. I hope that you refrain from using such words in the future and I will respect you as well.

Anonymous said...

All right I apologize for calling you a moron.

I just hate that we always sounds so fatalistic.

You can't build an economy by being nice and showing "kindness".

But we can't go the other extreme and not let business do business either.

Anonymous said...

Thanks. We sound fatalistic because we are and we have been fatalistic. We have allowed big busines, like Exxon and others of that consortium to develop our oil without NL taking a piece of that pie for ourselves. Places like China take 51 per cent and nobody can tell me that Alberta has passed its whole oil pie over to big business, without having a slice at some point in time. If Alberta had, it would not be going ahead like a house on fire.

We have to lay out the fundamentals ourselves. Develop part of the business and get our economy on a sure footing. After that maybe things can change. But if we pass everything over to big business, then you know what big business is in business for: big business looks after its own bottom line and that of its shareholders, it doesn't give two hoots about this province and NL's people. The government of NewfoundlandLabrador should first be looking after the shareholders of this province it citizens, and NL should be providing a base of employment out of all of its resources before it dares to give away any part of the resource pie. That is the only way NL will become a have province. First the fundamentals have to be laid down for a job based economy. It has not yet been done, but our Premier should start doing it very soon if he wants to get reelected.

Anonymous said...

Patriot

I am posting below the address of Sue Kelland Dyer's blog: http://suesrant.rantandroar.ca/suesblog.html

I hope and wish every Newfoundlander and Labradorian could log onto it and see what goes on here in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Sue backs up everything she writes with research articles pertaining to what she is writing about

What is going on in the business world seems to have gotten started 10 years ago under the premiership of another premier who was Liberal and now carrying on under this premier who is Progressive Conservative.

It appears to me that things are not done on political lines either Liberal or Progressive Conserative, but instead under business lines.

I do hope we are not in for another let down with the next big resource that is coming down the chute.

I love to see Newfoundland and Labrador companies getting in on the business, but if it is at the expense of the rest of the citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador, let the Oil remain in the bedrock, let the waters rush to the sea, let the minerals stay in the ground, and let the fish remain in their nursery on the Grand Banks of Newfoundland. Because under such circumstances things will not change in this province. We will just shift from one BusinessMaster to another Business Master. The equity in our resources needs to be taken by the province of Newfoundland and Labrador for the province of Newfoundland and Labrador and its people.

Please go to Sue's Blog at your own peril, sine what is contained within, you will find to be very eerily freightening information. I hope everything is not as it appears.

Edgar said...

ANON said...
Places like China take 51 per cent and nobody can tell me that Alberta has passed its whole oil pie over to big business, without having a slice at some point in time. If Alberta had, it would not be going ahead like a house on fire.

China may take 51 percent but do the O&G companies pay their workers the same as someone in AB? Are the same environmental regs being followed do you think? The O&G may 'give away' 51 per cent since the 49% probably works out to the 100% minus cost of industry wages minus cost occupational health & safety regs minus cost of environment regs etc. Are you willing to have the government take 51% and pay the workers the same as those in China? Same environmental and OH&S regs.? I didn't think so.

Alberta did pass over the whole pie to industry, charging only a royalty based on the price of O&G produced and sold from properties in AB. As prices went up, so did the amount of royalties into the provincial treasury. It is going like a house on fire because of the free market environment that was created by the governing conservatives back in the day and which was further expanded by Klein in the late 90's. Heck, he even sold off the provincially owned heating and electrical utility, much to the dismay of the residents because they were going to pay double for their heating and electrical needs. (From an average of $100/month to $200/month). But, there was a need for greater energy capacity, especially for the Fort Mac projects and govt. couldn't very well invest billions into such an industry since that is not the purpose of govts. as I have argued here before. What has occurred is a doubling of the capacity and thus industry has been able to expand their projects, hiring more workers, who buy goods and services, purchase new homes and pay taxes. Then they need more carpenters to build the houses and these carpenters buy goods and services, purchase new homes and pay taxes. Retailers sell more goods and services, thus have to hire more workers...etc etc. It is capitalism and entreprenurialship at its finest, a thing of beauty for an engaging FMC like myself.

Oh, those peoples complaining about their utility bills going from 100-200$ per month, the homes they purchased for 100 grand 10 years ago are now worth 350-400 grand and their wages have increased about 30-40% over the same time. Would you think that this is a worthy business model to emulate or would you rather have the state-run nationalized model like the Cubans and Russians are currently experiencing.

Edgar

Anonymous said...

Edgar Alberta had 100 per cent of it O & G Pie in its possession for many years before it passed it over to industry. Alberta already had the fundamentals laid for years and Alberta was enjoying the fruits of its O & G resource. Alberta's economy always consisted of jobs. When it changed over you can rest assured that Alberta was able to negotiate a contract out of that resource that the returns were greater than what it was receiving from the method it had been using. It is quite obvious that it was a great move because of the way its economy is expanding. The differece though with Alberta and NewfoundlandLabrador is that Alberta was the DISTINCT owner of its O & G resources and Alberta guided it right from the beginning, the way it wanted to. When Alberta decided to switch to the present system charging the royalty base on the price of O & G that was produced and sold from its properties, you can be darn well sure that the method it switched to, a contract had been negotiated that would see Alberta getting a better deal from industry than the returns it was getting previously from Alberta running the fields. The details are all in the contract negotiated. It must have been a mighty good one.

Edgar said...

Just because you ignore the facts doesn't mean that it isn't so.


http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0006254

This will be my final comment on the subject: NL had momentum when DW signed the Atlantic Accord with the Paul Martin Liberals. He played the Libs perfectly and got an excellent starting point for NL's fortunes. He tried the same tactic with Exxon and the others with regards to Ben-nevis and it failed miserably. Now that project is done and those engineers and other support staff are gone to different corners of the globe for other projects. Other prospective oil and gas explorers have also gotten cold feet. Once the capital goes somewhere else it is gone until the cash flow starts again, usually 3-5 years.

Now you want to bring in fallow field legislation on Ben Nevis to force them into something that wasn't part of the original property rights purchase. I understand wanting it on a go-forward basis but to want to apply it to past oil parcel sales is a bit two-faced and not conducive to the environment the govt. should and could be trying to grow in a place where jobs and a better future are desperately needed. People don't come here to Alberta for the Ralph bucks, they are here because there are jobs, opportunity and the dream of making it big. I get the impression that quite a few in NL think that the equity position is going to pave all the streets in gold or that everyone will be sitting around with their unionized govt. oil patch job. That is simply not going to happen.

Like I asked before in this thread, who's gonna front the money for the equity position in the lower churchill and the Ben Nevis deal? Surely you don't expect the taxpayers of Canada to put the money up, or do you? I asked a few simple questions earlier and no one has taken the time to answer them.

I'll reiterate, NL had momentum, there could have been a gradual build up of infrastructure, job skills and tax base which would have paid off big time 3-10 years down the road. Now you have uncertainty and uhuals loading up to come west in the land of free market enterprise. A system, by all accounts, that wasn't worthy to be tried in NL but one where the majority of its residents flourish in when they are transplanted here.

Go figure.

Edgar

Anonymous said...

Edgar the Oil Industry is in a downturn now. And it is waiting it out, because there is a recession in progress in the United States , and as a result of the way US and Global Trade are intertwined, the malaise will affect the economies of the whole World. Bull markets do not last forever. It an ebb and flow. Some analysts say that the world will even go in to a depression.

On the issue of the Feds not fronting the money for the equity position of Churchill Fall. Edgar it is a strange thing the Federal Government is always there for a CORPORATION like Bombardier. That is just a corporation, not a PROVINCIAL government, and I can bring up a couple of instances over the past 5 years where Ottawa gave Bombardier up to $3 billion dollars. It was all publicized.