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Sunday, October 22, 2006

Will Lower Churchill Be Another Giveaway?

I’m so sick of the giveaway mentality shared by successive governments in Newfoundland and Labrador. People in the province have rallied behind Premier Danny Williams since he came to office. They tout him as Dan da Man, the guy who is going to end giveaways once and for all, but is he really?

When Danny Boy stood up to the vultures of big oil I was in his corner all the way. When he fought Ottawa over offshore revenues I cheered right along with the rest of the Province and when he talked about the volatile political situation in Quebec I nodded my agreement, but I have to say, his position on the Lower Churchill really has me pissed.

For months now Danny Williams has talked about exporting power through Quebec or via the so called Anglo Saxon route. He referenced the east/west power grid as a means of pressuring Ottawa into supporting his export plans. Just this week Williams told a local reporter that the Quebec route is his preferred option and he’s sure he can work out a deal. That bothers me like you wouldn’t believe because the one thing I’ve never heard him say is hat he wants to use the power right here at home.

Why does Newfoundland and Labrador have to export power in order to take advantage of it? What’s wrong with using the resource here and why the hell does the government of this province once again think the only way forward is to give everything away?

It all started back when Newfoundland and Labrador gave away its sovereignty and nothing’s changed since. Just look at the pathetic record of past governments.

The Upper Churchill project - billions of dollars flow into Quebec coffers for another 35 years while Newfoundland and Labrador barely makes enough to keep the turbines spinning.

Voisey Bay - INCO signed a deal to build a smelter in the province and years later ore continues to be flow to Ontario and Manitoba faster than water down the Churchill but there’s still no smelter and even the location for it is being debated.

Offshore oil - The province has a burgeoning oil industry yet not one drop of the stuff is refined here and there are no petrochemical industries in the Province. Every drop is shipped out to be processed.

The list goes on and on, yet the Premier sill says his preferred option is to export power through Quebec.

Newfoundland and Labrador has the highest unemployment rate in the Country, some of the highest taxes, massive out-migration, a dependence on seasonal industries and is facing an aging population base. Come on Danny, get with the game. Instead of looking for ways to export that power why not adopt a “No Export” policy on all electrical energy. Instead, why examine the feasibility of improving the internal distribution grid so the power can be used to attract industry to the Province.

Using wind power, Lower Churchill power and eventually even Upper Churchill power as a catalyst for industrial growth is the only way the province will ever see the full benefits of the resource and the only way for those benefits to be understood, shared and felt by the people. The future depends on growing the economy and the best way to foster that growth is by retaining and using renewable resources to attract industrial development.

Newfoundland and Labrador’s ability to supply low cost, stable and clean energy, in combination with its port facilities, an available workforce and the its physical proximity to North American and European markets uniquely positions the province to become an industrial nirvana. An ample power supply, one that will grow much larger in 2041, can encourage industrial growth and it has the potential to:

• Drastically improve the province’s economic situation;
• Lower unemployment rates;
• Stem the tide of out-migration;
• Broaden the industrial tax base;
• Lessen dependence on an unstable or seasonal economy;
• Provide a mechanism for ex-patriot Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to return to their homes; and
• Increase the province’s shrinking population;

The only possible argument against this approach is a limited ability to finance the development, but there are ways around that. In fact the project itself could be developed in partnership with industry. It’s not a new concept. In the 1940s, British Columbia wanted to develop sparsely populated parts of the province and establish new population centers without risking taxpayers' funds. Aluminum manufacturer, Alcan, was invited to the area and they worked with the BC government to develop the Kitimat-Kemano power project, which in its day was the largest privately-funded construction project ever undertaken in Canada. As a result Alcan continues to be an industrial leader and major employer in BC today.

Like BC, the government of Newfoundland and Labrador has the opportunity to use its power resources to grow the province. It has the opportunity, over time, to resolve a lot of the problems that exist today. It has the opportunity to do things right at least once. It has the opportunity, but will it, or will the government of today simply give it all away once again?

37 comments:

Anonymous said...

So your not a Danny Williams fan anymore it seems. Finally saw the light did ya?

Williams is no different than any of the other power hungry grand standing dilitaunts that you people have had for Premier. Well, let me rephrase that, Danny is all that plus an ignorant SOB. Danny is a one man show with an ego as big as your province.

By the way, how do you expect to attract industry to your province with a premier who is constantly screaming insulats at the industry you already have/had, Exxon and Abiti Price come to mind. Danny Boy has a reputation as a hot head who prefers to sget in front of TV cameras or on the front page of newspapers screaming insults at anyone or any coirporation that dares to deviate from that which he feels is in the best interests of Dannyville.

Face it, you people have a huge problem in the name of Danny Williams, get used to it!

Anonymous said...

Get rid of Danny....get rid of the problem.

Get someone who welcomes industry and doesn't have to have all the attention.

Anonymous said...

Anon who wrote this: QUOTE By the way, how do you expect to attract industry to your province with a premier who is constantly screaming insulats at the industry you already have/had, Exxon and Abiti Price come to mind. UNQUOTE

By the way Exxon doesn't want us to have even 5 per cent of any further development of Oil fields in our off-shore waters. We have 0 per cent equity at the moment, if Alberta was getting 0 per cent, do you think they would let further Oil be taken out of its Oil Fields? I do not think so!

As for Abitibi, they have now left not only NL, they are leaving the Maritimes and Quebec as well. Markets for Newsprint have been dramatically diminished with the electronic media, so I guess there is not much need for paper. Also the housing market is slowing in Canada and the United States at such an accelerated rate, less lumber is needed for that industry. Again if we had given Abitibi the Electricity that it was using to make paper and let them sell it to our people, they would have stayed. If the government gave me the electricity and said go sell it to the retail market, I would gladly do so and have a virtual bank at my disposal.

I SAY BY THE WAY how do you expect us to have economies here in this province when we give everything away to Industry, with absolutely nothing coming to Newfoundland and Labrador as we have done in the past? When we give away everything to other provinces, like Voisey Bay minerals, for cities like Sudbury, Ontario, Thompson, Manitoba for 15 years worth of life for each city, then there is no contribution to this province at all from that type of activity.

When Exxon won't allow us even 5 per cent equity in the huge Oil reserves in our waters, which would never be in Canada unless, of course, we became part of Confederation? Please Anon answer these questions for me, if we cannot get stakes in our resources, how are we ever going to get off the dole in Canada? You like to lambaste us for being on the dole, how do we get rid of that scourge if we aren't allowed equity into our resources? That is the way Alberta is making it in Canada and, of course, Ontario is making it from being able to use the raw materials from NL to fuel its industries which should locate here instead. The problem is there is no problem getting industry to come in and take the resources out without leaving NewfoundlandLabrador with even 5 per cent of the resources. Please tell me how.

WJM said...

By the way Exxon doesn't want us to have even 5 per cent of any further development of Oil fields in our off-shore waters.

Exxon-Mobil offered 5%.

For certain legalistic reasons, the province — that is, Chairman Dan — asked for 4.9% so as to be under the 5% threshhold.

From the Telegram: "The province had dropped its demand for a refinery, the premier said, but had in exchange secured a better royalty regime and a deal to acquire a 4.9 per cent equity interest in the project. "


We have 0 per cent equity at the moment, if Alberta was getting 0 per cent, do you think they would let further Oil be taken out of its Oil Fields? I do not think so!

Do you know what "equity" means?

What oil fields does Alberta own equity in?

When Exxon won't allow us even 5 per cent equity in the huge Oil reserves in our waters,

See above. 5% is EXACTLY what the company offered. And 4.9% is what the province — Dictator Dan — agreed to.

That is the way Alberta is making it in Canada and,

See above. What oil fields does Alberta own equity in? Do you have any idea what the word "equity" means?

of course, Ontario is making it from being able to use the raw materials from NL to fuel its industries which should locate here instead.

Why "should" an industry locate ANYWHERE? What is the moral imperative? Which NL raw materials does Ontario use? How does it get them?

The problem is there is no problem getting industry to come in

No, the problem is the attitude that work is a thing that someone else from somewhere else comes and gives you out of the goodness of their heart, rather than something that results from enterprise trying to turn a profit in a free marketplace, or, Heaven forbid, something that you make for yourself.

Anonymous said...

WJM you are bang on again. Some people have said you work for the Federal govt and I'm not sure if you do or not, but you seem to be very knowledgeable about a variety of topics.

I'm so glad there are some "thinkers" in this province who don't need Big Brother Danny Williams to tell them what to feel, think and do.

And by the way...who does Williams think he is to say that he can make sure there is not one vote from Newfoundland for Harper in the next election?? Last time I checked, this was still a democracy and I will vote for whomever I bloody well want to. And it WON'T be Williams.

Patriot said...

To the Anon who said, "So your not a Danny Williams fan anymore it seems", I never said I was. I agree with Williams on a number of points and disagree with him on others. Unlike some people who simply follow along with what ever party or leader they've aligned with, I try to look at each issue as it arises.

As for WJM, I won't get into a competition with you as I know you always love, but I will say that if you honestly are asking in another tread, what resources are used elsehwere, all you need to do is look around at the oil going out, the minerals going out and none of it processed or providing materials for industry here.

Anonymous said...

The easiest job Danny Williams had ever had.
Just promise the things people want to hear and then, later, just blame someone else for the unkept promises.

Anonymous said...

WJm how is that Alberta has been able to become rich on its Oil resource where the province of Newfoundland and Labrador hasn't?

I would appreciate it if you explain that scenario for me please, and please WJM do not renege on this question. If you do not answer, you will negate everything that you said above. Yes please do explain the FORMULA ON HOW ALBERTA BECAME SO RICH ON ITS OIL RESOURCE.

Anonymous said...

WJM also please give an accounting of the other resources that Alberta posessess that it is using to get so ultra rich on?

I will give you an accounting of some of the resources the province of Newfoundland and Labrador is giving away or was it that they were stolen from us by non transparent means; 1. FISH, the WORLD already has been on our doorsteps feasting for the past 57 years compliments of OTTAWA. 2. HYDROELECTRIC POWER, in great demand, it is clean and much less polluting than coal and oil and a lot less dangerous than Nuclear energy. 3. MINERALS - Iron Ore, no doubt, Ontario has received some of that for its Auto Industry. Then there is Nickel that Sudbury, Ontario gets to live another 15 years on and that same deoposit of Nickel also provides another 15 years of life to Thompson, Manitoba. 4. OIL, Nova Scotia runs a refinery on that Sweet Crude and so does Saint John, New Brunswick, all or most of which is destined for the United States Market, etc, etc.

WJM Please list for me the resources that Alberta is becoming rich on. I will look forward to your reply.

WJM said...

WJm how is that Alberta has been able to become rich on its Oil resource where the province of Newfoundland and Labrador hasn't?

Alberta has a lot more oil and gas, has had it under development for longer, and its a lot cheaper to develop than offshore.

Yes please do explain the FORMULA ON HOW ALBERTA BECAME SO RICH ON ITS OIL RESOURCE.

I have no idea what you mean by "formula".

What do you mean by "formula"?

WJM said...

WJM also please give an accounting of the other resources that Alberta posessess that it is using to get so ultra rich on?

Why? I'm not the one arguing that Alberta is becoming "ultra rich"! You are!

1. FISH, the WORLD already has been on our doorsteps feasting for the past 57 years compliments of OTTAWA.

1) What do you mean, "past 57 years"? There were French, American, and pre-Confederation fisheries in and around Newfoundland before 1949 while Newfoundland had self-government, to say nothing of the older Portuguse, Spanish, French, and Basque ones.

2) What do you mean "past 57 years", when Canada only gave itself a 200-mile limit in the 1970s... just as every other country with a 200-mile limit did?

2. HYDROELECTRIC POWER, in great demand, it is clean and much less polluting than coal and oil and a lot less dangerous than Nuclear energy.

"We" SOLD our hydroelectric power. No one came down in ski masks and took it. (And guess how little sympathy I have for Newfoundland nationalists bitching and whining about how little THEY get out of a Labrador resource that THEY sold too cheaply. Hint: not very much.)

3. MINERALS - Iron Ore, no doubt, Ontario has received some of that for its Auto Industry.

Ontario has had one of the world's largest auto industries since the 1920s, thirty years before NL joined Confederation, and longer still before Labrador iron ore was developed.

In any event, there's a missing step: you don't make cars out of iron ore. You make them out of steel. And guess what? The iron ore mining industry is an offshoot of the steelmaking industry. Without the steelmakers who were formerly so prominent in the Great Lakes area of Canada and the US, the iron ore mines of Labrador wouldn't exist.

What's stopping a great industrialist or capitalist, like perhaps Danny Williams, from building a steel mill in Labrador or Newfoundland that IOC or Wabush Mines could sell pellets or concentrate to?

(See above for my sympathies about Newfoundland nationalists complaining about the development of a Labrador resource. Same thing applies here.)

Then there is Nickel that Sudbury, Ontario gets to live another 15 years on and that same deoposit of Nickel also provides another 15 years of life to Thompson, Manitoba.

They "get it" because that's what the provincial government of the province that the nickel is in agreed to.

(See above etc. etc.)

4. OIL, Nova Scotia runs a refinery on that Sweet Crude and so does Saint John, New Brunswick, all or most of which is destined for the United States Market, etc, etc.

What's stopping you from opening another refinery?

Where does the oil come from for Holyrood and Come-by-Chance?

Should you give those people their oil back?

Why or why not?

WJM Please list for me the resources that Alberta is becoming rich on.

Oil, oil sands and natural gas, forestry, and coal, agriculture, but most importantly, an educated work-force, a large service sector, world-class universities, and diverse urban economies.

Natural resources are a very poor predictor of how "rich" a place becomes. Latin America and Africa are relatively rich in natural resources. Japan, modern-day Western Europe, Hong Kong and Singapore are poor in them.

WJM said...

As for WJM, I won't get into a competition with you as I know you always love, but I will say that if you honestly are asking in another tread, what resources are used elsehwere, all you need to do is look around at the oil going out, the minerals going out and none of it processed or providing materials for industry here.

What's stopping you?

Why haven't you opened a steel mill to buy iron ore pellets from IOC?

Why don't you open a refinery that will be just as able to buy Hibernia crude as any other?

If you want to use resources locally, get entrepreneurial and start an industry that can use the product of that resource development.

Which "minerals" are shipped out "unprocessed" by the way? Seriously. Which ones? Neither nickel ore nor iron ore is shipped from the province in raw ore form, despite the lies you accept uncritically.

WJM said...

I wonder... why don't Newfoundlanders ever demand an end to Labrador wood, Labrador turbot, Labrador shrimp, Labrador wild berries, Labrador iceberg ice, Labrador nickel concentrate or Labrador stone being taken from Labrador for processing in Newfoundland?

Why is that?

Anyone?

Where is the outrage from our friendly neighbourhood Newfoundland nationalist hypocrites about that?

Anonymous said...

However pathetic, it is quite obvious that you are a listener to the Open Line Shows as you have discerned the difference in accents, and I do think I did hear you at one time, at least once,talking to Bill Rowe on his show. I am going by the name that is associated with your call letters WJM. The person who called Bill Rowe identified himself with the name that has been associtated with your call letters WJM on postings to this blog.

However, no matter what the accent or grammar you discern on the Open Line shows, at least the peoples' voices are heard. If you can understand what they are saying, that is all that is required. I hope both levels of government hear what people are saying, as well, and that they do something about what is being said.

Oh by the way WJM, if you don't like the accents and grammar of the people, please do not tune in to the shows, you do not have to subject your delicate ears to what the people have to say with their not so grandiose accents. I don't suppose anybody forces the show upon you.

Also WJM in answer to your next posting - You don't mind WJM Ottawa getting equity in our Oil and having control of the Fish Resource. It is also obvious you don't have any qualms about Quebec being the primary beneficiary of the Hydroelectricity, Sudbury, Ontario having a supply of Nickel so that it can live another 15 years and also Thompson, Manitoba having a supply of Nickel so that it also can live another 15 years.

Quebec, Ontario, nor Manitoba aren't responsible for one cent of upkeep of infrastructure to Labrador or Newfoundland. The NewfoundlandLabrador government is responsible, of course, we get money from Ottawa as well, but just look at the difference of monies going into the other provinces, and Ottawa gets very little in return. Does the province of Newfoundland and Labrador get to be the primary beneficiary of any resource out of Quebec, Ontario or Manitoba? Please answer that one for me.

Action Now said...

Chairman Dan offereed 150million in subsities to the stephenville paper mill to keep it going. I think it was money that could be better spent (ie small business seed money). It was a disagreement between the company and the union that closed the mill. The same problem will face Corner Brook and Grand Falls. $30/hr with union benfits is not competive with labour in china.

I try not to go down to WJM level but for the record Labrador is part of NL. THe province of Newfoundland and Labrador, former Dominion of Newfoundland is composed of the island of newfoundland and the part of the labrador pensula confermed by the 1927 privy council decision as being part of Newfoundland. A resource in one part of the province can be developed for the benfit of the entire province. To twist one of your "arguments" Why is not some Labrador business person taking something from the island and processing it in labrador???

It is not a labrador resource or a island resource, it is a resource of Newfoundland Labrador.

And as for nationalist hypocrits at least they are trying to push for change unlike you WJM who is content with the status quo.


and back to what I wanted to say. All new hydro should be used for development of the province. Iceland, which is a indeptant nation as used its hydro and gepthermal to develop its economy. this is the path we should follow. Use cheap power to attact business, NL is perfectly located to operate in the global market. Canadien markets are set against us.

The upper churchill contract is illegal under the laws of canada, and quebec. But no court in Canada will rule in NL favour against Quebec.


And to finish in suport of danny If he never signs a contract he will never sign a bad one. As the value of the resource goes up they will met our terms. Or someone for short term gain will sign it away (IE upper churchill, come by chance, linerboard, and the almost lower churchill under Grimes. INCO will probaly be under this heading in time)

WJM said...

Oh by the way WJM, if you don't like the accents and grammar of the people, please do not tune in to the shows, you do not have to subject your delicate ears to what the people have to say with their not so grandiose accents.

When did I say anything about accents?

Also WJM in answer to your next posting - You don't mind WJM Ottawa getting equity in our Oil

Getting?

Ottawa BOUGHT equity in Hibernia to save the project from going mams-up back around 1990.

It's ridiculous to hear people in Newfoundland saying "Ottawa" should "give back" its stake in Hibernia... Give it back to whom? Newfoundland never owned it, and it wasn't "given" to "Ottawa" in the first place!

and having control of the Fish Resource.

Nope. Don't mind.

It is also obvious you don't have any qualms about Quebec being the primary beneficiary of the Hydroelectricity,

What's nefarious or bad about it? They lucked into a good bargain. Remember, at the time Hydro-Quebec bought (there's that word again!) its share of the so-called "Upper Churchill", most analysts thought it was buying a white elephant.

Sudbury, Ontario having a supply of Nickel so that it can live another 15 years and also Thompson, Manitoba having a supply of Nickel so that it also can live another 15 years.

How long will the Long Harbour area "live" from concentrate from Labrador and elsewhere? Is it OK for Newfoundland to benefit from someone else's resources... but not the other way around? And where are you getting the "15 years" figure from?

Quebec, Ontario, nor Manitoba aren't responsible for one cent of upkeep of infrastructure to Labrador or Newfoundland.

Quebec is responsible for the upkeep of the 389 and eventually the 138... But what's your point?

The NewfoundlandLabrador government

What's "NewfoundlandLabrador", other than one of Danny Williams' odd little wet dreams?

is responsible, of course, we get money from Ottawa as well, but just look at the difference of monies going into the other provinces, and Ottawa gets very little in return.

Huh? How does "Ottawa" "get" any less in other province (or any more in NL?)

Does the province of Newfoundland and Labrador get to be the primary beneficiary of any resource out of Quebec, Ontario or Manitoba? Please answer that one for me.

Not as far as I know.

Does Quebec, Ontario or Manitoba get to be the "primary beneficiary" — whatever that means — of a resource out of NL (other than the share of the so-called Upper Churchill which "we" sold to Hydro-Quebec)?

WJM said...

Myles:

If people are going to accuse me of being one or more of the anonymous posters here, you really ought to bite the bullet and ban anonymous postings.

I do not post under any handle other than my own. It is potentially libellous for anyone to suggest otherwise. You, and the anonymouses, should govern yourselves accordingly.

WJM said...

I try not to go down to WJM level but for the record Labrador is part of NL.

Is that in dispute?

THe province of Newfoundland and Labrador, former Dominion of Newfoundland is composed of the island of newfoundland and the part of the labrador pensula confermed by the 1927 privy council decision as being part of Newfoundland.

No, as being under the jurisdiction of Newfoundland.

Until 1949, Newfoundland was the name of the island only.

A resource in one part of the province can be developed for the benfit of the entire province.

Absolutely. And to develop a Labrador resource in Labrador, benefits the whole province, because, as you correctly point out, Labrador is part of the province...

...isn't it?

To twist one of your "arguments" Why is not some Labrador business person taking something from the island and processing it in labrador???

What would you suggest a Labrador business person "take"?

It is not a labrador resource or a island resource, it is a resource of Newfoundland Labrador.

What is "Newfoundland Labrador"????!?!?!?!

And as for nationalist hypocrits at least they are trying to push for change unlike you WJM who is content with the status quo.

Newfoundland nationalist hypocrites are the biggest status-quo pushers around. The do nothing — absolutely nothing — to help Labrador get a fair shake within the province. In fact, anyone who even suggests that Labrador isn't getting a fair shake, is condemned by Newfoundland nationalist hypocrites as a traitor. Youse can't have anyone challenge the Newfoundland nationalist crypto-separatist orthodoxy that has prevailed for decades.

And back to what I wanted to say. All new hydro should be used for development of the province.

Labrador is part of the province, right? Use it all in Labrador, or for Labrador's benefit. Not one watt should go to Newfoundland until all of Labrador is supplied by hydro or a cheaper, cleaner, equivalent as compared to diesel. No industrial use in Newfoundland should be allowed until all industrial avenues are exhausted in Labrador. After all, if Labrador benefits, the province benefits.

Newfoundlanders can't have it both ways. You can't complain about others taking your resources, while you take Labrador's. Even Chairman Dan says so. And you can't say "it's all one province", while at the same time only seeing a benefit "to the province" if a Labrador resource is used in Newfoundland.

Iceland, which is a indeptant nation as used its hydro and gepthermal to develop its economy. this is the path we should follow. Use cheap power to attact business,

Subsidize them, in other words.

NL is perfectly located to operate in the global market. Canadien markets are set against us.

How? (And why did you lapse into French there?)

The upper churchill contract is illegal under the laws of canada, and quebec.

Illegal under what law of Canada? Under what law of Quebec? Why has no brilliant lawyer argued those laws in court?

But no court in Canada will rule in NL favour against Quebec.

How do you know? Boy, if it's illegal you should get it into court right away!

And to finish in suport of danny

Of course! Glorious Leader, May He Live Forever, We Must Sing His Praises!

If he never signs a contract he will never sign a bad one. As the value of the resource goes up they will met our terms.

How do you know the value of the resource will go UP?

The long-term trend for ALL resources, in real dollar terms, is that they are going DOWN in value... not up.

Or someone for short term gain will sign it away (IE upper churchill, come by chance, linerboard, and the almost lower churchill under Grimes.

If — and it's a big if — Danny signs a deal to steal another Labrador resource for Newfoundland's benefit, his Lower Churchill deal will be nearly identical, in all its aspects, to the one that he crucified Grimes about.

Just watch.

Anonymous said...

Tsk. Tsk. Tsk

Ottawa is speaking. We better shut up.

Anonymous said...

How can we steal from ourselves?

Patriot said...

Sorry WJM but I don't plan to banish anyone for taking you or anyone else to task. if they accused you of something wrongly I'm sure you are big enough to fight your own battle.

Some people don't feel free enough to expose who they are over the web and I won't stop those people from expressing their opinions.

On another subject, two points. You said NL nationalists would never admit that Labrador is not treated fairly. I consider myself as close to a nationalist as they come but I freely admit that Labrador is treated by Newfoundland the way our entire province is treated by Canada.

Also, not to be too nit picky but what did you mean by taking Labrador Ice bergs? I thought ice bergs were free floating chunks of ice in the ocean. I'm not trying to be cute here I really would like to know how you can consider them Labrador's?

Anonymous said...

WJM who asked the question "What's stopping you from opening another refinery"?

My God WJM a province cannot build a refinery when it wants to. Danny Williams would like to but we are not given the latitude to do so. Where do you get the notion wjm that we can do so at will? I was under the impression that you had more of an understanding than that.

WJM said...

Sorry WJM but I don't plan to banish anyone for taking you or anyone else to task.

Who asked you to banish anyone?

On another subject, two points. You said NL nationalists would never admit that Labrador is not treated fairly. I consider myself as close to a nationalist as they come but I freely admit that Labrador is treated by Newfoundland the way our entire province is treated by Canada.

What are you doing about it?

Also, not to be too nit picky but what did you mean by taking Labrador Ice bergs? I thought ice bergs were free floating chunks of ice in the ocean. I'm not trying to be cute here I really would like to know how you can consider them Labrador's?

When they are harvested in Labrador waters, they are in Labrador, aren't they? That makes them Labrador's.

WJM said...

How can we steal from ourselves?

In which case there is nothing morally wrong with a Newfoundland or Labrador resource being used anywhere else in Canada.

All one country, right?

WJM said...

My God WJM a province cannot build a refinery when it wants to.

Who says anything about provinces? I don't think provinces should be in the business of, well, business. Provinces shouldn't be building refineries.

Danny Williams would like to but we are not given the latitude to do so.

What do you mean, "we are not given the latitude"? How is "latitude" denied, and by whom?

Where do you get the notion wjm that we can do so at will?

Who's "we" in this sentence?

I was under the impression that you had more of an understanding than that.

I was under NO impression whatsoever that you have any clue of how private industry works. No wonder things are in such bad shape, when you think "provinces" are, or should be, in the business of refining petroleum.

I ask again: what's stopping YOU, personally, from building a refinery?

Anonymous said...

I am not talking about private industry. I want the province of NewfoundlandLabrador to run our resouces, just like Saskatchewan and other provinces which have control of their resources have done. Saskatchewan has become a 'have province' and it has done so by having control of its resources and using those resources to work for it.

Anonymous said...

So you believe government can do a better job of running industry than private concerns?

This is the kind of thinking that has made you people the social basket case that you are! "let the guvmint run 'er bye, dey are de only ones dat will look out for us". You people will NEVER...I repeat NEVER make a go of things in that province as long as you foster that mentality!

You need to have a government that will demonstrate that the province is open for business. Government has to cease its efforts to play nanny to every basketcase community that wants somebody elses tax dollars to sustain them. In short, you must change your entire way of thinking as it pertains to government. Do you want a nanny, or do you want a government that fosters goodwill and encourges outside interests to invest in your province?

Something for you all to think about ... Insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly expectinging different results!

Anonymous said...

Why hasn't it made Saskatchewan a basket case, but instead a "have" province. And Ontario, but now Ontario has its resources consumed and it is using other provinces resources like NewfoundlandLabrador's. Other provinces have gotten to use their's as well.

What is it about you people when Newfoundlanders'/Labradorians' want to have something a certain way, it just cannot be because Mainlanders have too much control.

Anonymous said...

Since we joined Canada we have never been able to have full control of our resources. Ottawa took over being the Nanny of that one in the late 1940s. Was it 1948 or 1949? Nobody really seems to know that one.Because it seems like Ottawa drew up the Terms of Union in 1948, can you imagine Ottawa DRAWING UP THE TERMS OF UNION FOR NEWFOUNDLAND/LABRADOR and NOT NEWFOUNDLAND/LABRADOR. Is it any wonder the MESS we are in? I can't believe that was allowed to happen. Ottawa had the bag of goodies and could choose what it wanted from Newfoundland/Labrador. Now that was the case of a FOX GUARDING THE HEN HOUSE if I ever heard of a case.

When you know that tidbit of information, then you know why Quebec got to be the beneficiary of the Hydroelectricty, a multi-billion dollar industry that NL gets barely enough to keep the project running. And why Sudbury, Ontario and Thompson, Manitoba gets to live another 15 years on the Nickel from Voisey's Bay, while we are still fight here to have a Hydromet Facility built somewhere in the Province. The Terms of Union need to be renogotiated. It is the only way we will ever get ahead here.

Anonymous said...

You people still don't get it!

Stop playing the role of victim and take charge of your situation. Stop blaming everybody else for your problems.

You also have to take a strong dose of reality medicine, you cannot continue to support people living in remote areas if those areas are not sustainable. As i understand it, consecutive provincial governments have enabled your rural areas to exist knowing full well that they could not be sustainable or self sifficient. Everybody wants infastructure but nobody wants to have the responsibility of paying for it.

Bottom line folks, if you live in a place in which you cannot maintain a living wage....find a place where you can do so. Don't expect the rest of Canada to pay your bills.

You don't see Albertans whining and complaining, they have been hard working and made their province a shining example of how it's done!

Anonymous said...

You people are hedging all your bets on non-renewable resources. Has anybody given consideration as to what your future will be when those resources are gone? Why isn't higher education given more importance. Your province has the highest incidence of iliteracy in the country. Iliterate people will not grow your province or it's future. If all the petroleum, minerals, forests and fish disappeared tomorrow, what would you do?

GMT said...

wjm said "I ask again: what's stopping YOU, personally, from building a refinery? "

I am pretty sure there is an agreement that no new refineries can be built until the current refinery capacity is exhausted.

Therefore a refinery cannot be built in NL to refine oil from offshore NL until those in the rest of Atlantic and the maritimes are working at 100%.

Anonymous said...

Anon

We have two resources that are quite renewable FISH and HYDROELECTRIC. We cannot hedge our bets on either of those because Ottawa saw to it that Quebec got to be the primary beneficiary of both of them. The FISH resource, of course, you know the quotas are in Ottawa's hand, and Ottawa has made sure that it got the benefits from that resource to the fullest. Now that renewable resource is on the wane because Ottawa has positioned a pack of rogue countries out there on the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks of Newfoundland and those rogues are fishing it to extinction. The Hydroelectric is used for Quebec's primary benefit. We here in Newfoundland and Labrador are at the whim of Ottawa. Tell us what to do instead of complaining.

Anonymous said...

Anon

YES tell us something constructive on how we can wrestle control of our resources out of the hands of Ottawa and into the hands of the Newfoundland and Labrador Government, so the Government can make the Fishery Work for NL'ians. No more silly suggestions like what you usually suggest. Constructive suggestions Only Please.

WJM said...

I am pretty sure there is an agreement that no new refineries can be built until the current refinery capacity is exhausted.

No, there is not.

WJM said...

I am not talking about private industry. I want the province of NewfoundlandLabrador to run our resouces, just like Saskatchewan and other provinces which have control of their resources have done.

ALL Provinces have control of their resources.

Every last province.

Every single one.

In fact, Newfoundland and Labrador has MORE control over MORE resources than any other province.

WJM said...

Since we joined Canada we have never been able to have full control of our resources.

Which resources under provincial jurisdiction to we have less control over than we did before 1949? Or less than another province?

Which ones?

Because it seems like Ottawa drew up the Terms of Union in 1948, can you imagine Ottawa DRAWING UP THE TERMS OF UNION FOR NEWFOUNDLAND/LABRADOR and NOT NEWFOUNDLAND/LABRADOR.

Perhaps the concept of a two-party agreement is foreign to you, but in a two-party agreement, the terms are not drawn up by one party.

In the case of the Terms of Union, they were drafted by representatives of Newfoundland (as it then was) and the federal government.

Two parties.

Wild, huh?

Ottawa had the bag of goodies and could choose what it wanted from Newfoundland/Labrador.

What did it "choose"? Be specific.